Smokedsalmon
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Posts posted by Smokedsalmon
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The issue with our defence is not down to the individual quality of the players, but the system.
1) There is no midfield cover. McGree struggles to get back, Howson leaves his position vacant constantly. Way too often opposition midfielders have a free run directly through the final third of the pitch and at our defence. Lenihan is not good enough to cover this by himself and is getting dragged all over the place (not really his fault).
2) The wing backs are pretty poor defenders. Giles and Jones are great going forwards, but other than their pace, they struggle defensively with their positioning and tackling (Jones goes to ground constantly and misses the tackle). They are both better suited to being out and out wide men. You can see Giles getting absolutely knackered after about 60 minutes with the work he has to go through - I think that (especially in the heat yesterday) is probably why he scores the own-goal. Tired swing of the boot.
3) We ask the wide centre backs to step up into midfield. Bola and Dijksteel are encouraged to take up the same sort of positions you'd expect of a full back. We leave ourselves wide open for the counter and frequently find ourselves in 2v2 defensive situations (because the midfield *cough Howson* never covers the position properly), which is never ideal.
4) We are very vulnerable to the press. None of our back line, or midfield, are technically & mentally competent enough at receiving the ball under pressure and playing through the lines. Basic stuff, really. We don't play the ball through tight gaps and angles; it's always in front of the player and into feet. The result of this is that we end up going long, giving it away, and inviting further pressure.
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Mowatt and McNair should be our CM pairing with McGree behind the strikers. No brainer for me.
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2 minutes ago, Dynamo Kev said:
and its moments like that which win games. the fact we can score goals of that quality should be highlighted and not dismissed as if its nothing. we scored a great goal at qpr like that to. recognize our quality guys.
No team gets promoted playing well in bursts. That's been our entire problem under Wilder. 45 minutes here, 20 minutes there.
We scored a great goal today. We also let in 2 *** ones.
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5 minutes ago, RealSlimSladeyy said:
Does our first goal ever in a million years happen in a Warnock team?
It was a good goal with some good build up. Also the only time we did it in the whole half.
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1 minute ago, JTG said:
Also people comparing this to Warnock need to go back and watch a couple of our games under him.
A lot of our play today was no different to it, especially the first half. We were going long into the channels consistently and losing possession with ease.
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It really does feel like when Sheffield United got relegated.
You could see them huffing and puffing every game, never getting battered hugely, but just being ineffective. And Wilder did nothing to change it.
This 3-5-2 is not going to suddenly click into place because we sign a new #9. The midfield/back 3 do not work at playing the ball out and we let in so many *** soft goals.
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2 minutes ago, SouthernSmoggie said:
Not really got Giles in today have we
Everything's been either into feet or pumped up towards the strikers. Nobody's stretched the play or driven with the ball.
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Boro strikers being isolated and not in the game?
You honestly couldn't write it. This is manager, what, number 5 in a row who hasn't managed to fix that?
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Just now, Uwe said:
Funny to read thoughts on Howson (I think he’s been ok. Not great but not bad) but the Sheff Utd commentators think he was starting to impose himself and running midfield 🤷♂️
He hasn't ran a midfield since he left Norwich.
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1 minute ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:
We should probably be 3-1 down, need to be better second half
Really poor, we just keep sending it into the channels and losing it every time. I don't know if that's instructions from Wilder or our technically limited players shitting the bed when they get pressed, but this could very easily be Neil Warnock still in charge here.
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Howson has been absolutely ***, as per, with his distribution. We cannot play through midfield with him at the base.
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Fabulous signing! Not many times over the last few years have we bought a player who immediately comes in as a top 6 Championship quality signing, but here is 100% one.
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Paying 7m for Greaves strikes me as being *** barmy, considering we have basically not got a midfield, and yet we have 4 pretty highly rated CBs. The kid's had one full season in the Championship. Just put McNair there and please, please, please get a #6 in.
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1 minute ago, Tudders80 said:
Sign some of these or don't, at least we are being linked with new players in positions of need. I wonder if the city lad could play as a number 10.
I really think we'd benefit from playing with one of the CMs advanced as a CAM to link up play between the isolated strikers and midfield, so this would be positive signs. Anything to suggest Wilder is finally addressing the issues with the system he's forced onto the squad, rather than just trying to replace the whole squad to suit the system.
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1 minute ago, JTG said:
Just seems a strange one given how much Wilder has gone on about wanting a left footed cb.
He might well want it, but when 4 of your best players at the club are right footed centre halfs, there comes a point where you need to suck it up Wilder you big baby and just put McNair there man, howay.
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It's worth noting Tommy Smith definitely came on and played at RCB against QPR, so might be something in the thinking that we are giving up on a LCB and pushing McNair/Fry back across there.
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Personally hope we have seen the last of Watmore in any capacity except to bring on in the last 10-20 minutes.
Mentally he is such a poor footballer. He is offside constantly and his legs are about five minutes ahead of his brain. He scores the odd decent chance but the difference between him and Chuba at the weekend was night and day, our whole attacking play changed when we had a focal point who could drop deep, hold it up, and bring others in.
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Out of genuine curiosity, why is everybody so hung up on Greaves this window?
I've never seen the lad play and have no idea how good he is. I've seen he's had 1 full season in the Championship playing with Hull. Is he really that good? Some of the numbers being thrown around for his name seem very, very steep.
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I find it a bit bizarre that people are looking at those pictures and coming to the conclusion that it must be because Wilder has told them all to be massively out of position.
Yes, we do sometimes press high (and I stress sometimes because it is really only under certain triggers), but football is about balance, rotation, and movement. A press in modern football is not just "everybody run at the ball whenever they see it". If Howson is the one pressing high, somebody should drop into his position to cover him. My criticism of this goal is aimed at Crooks and McGree as well as Howson. You do not play 3 central midfielders and instruct them all to press the opposition box for 90 minutes. Especially in our system where we encourage our LCB and RCB to advance and join the attack.
I'd encourage people to watch the way that Man City counter-press under Guardiola (as Barcelona did before) and see how advanced Rodri/Fernandinho play (as Busquets used to) compared to the #8s. It's just basic football; you have a midfield pivot to play around who anchors the centre of the park. If we aren't going to use a defensive midfielder, then in a 3 at the back system it needs to be the central defender stepping up and occupying the space.
It is criminal for any football team to leave the centre of the pitch infront of their defenders unoccupied.
The only time Howson should be near the opponent's box is if we are camped outside it and trying to break them down. In this situation, we were in fact building possession through the midfield, close to our own half. He has no reason to be so advanced, which leads me to my next point...
Yes, it is a "counter attack" but if you are suffering from counter attacks that allow the opposition's best player to essentially carry the ball from the midway point of their half through to the edge of your box without a single midfielder challenging them, then you are fundamentally playing a brand of football that is defensively unsustainable.
It's not like we were throwing bodies forward to try and score a late goal and were leaving gaps. This was the 13th minute of the game.
TL;DR Wilder definitely does not instruct all 3 midfielders to get into the opposition's box all at once, and our midfielders haven't got the defensive discipline, athleticism, or work rate to control the centre of the park. We need a new #6.
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Just now, AnglianRed said:
I wonder if it would be worth having Howson revert to being a CB again?
I'd rather see us go to 4 at the back to be honest than shoe-horn Howson in.
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5 minutes ago, Foxtrot Oscar Colin said:
Thats how Wilder is asking him to play tho. I'm sure howson is professional enough to play as a 6 if asked but Wilder never has played with an out and out 6. Howson is primarily asked to close down opponents and get box to box not look after space in behind from what I've seen since Wilder come in. That's why this happens time and again.
Not a chance. No manager plays with a midfield 3 and tells all of them to play box to box.
Howson is the deepest of the 3 whenever we are in possession, always. He is the #6 being tasked with the "Oli Norwood role" of being the metronome in centre midfield that stays deeper, breaks up play, and distributes the ball forwards.
He's just *** at doing it.
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1 minute ago, Duvel said:
Thats what I saw from yesterday. Hopefully Wilder is showing him those clips today.
Nah, he's a "good pro" and a Yorkshire lad so will continue to be immune to criticism, somehow. He is shocking at that #6 role.
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I know that strikers have been the biggest topic of discussion this summer but, for me, the midfield has always been the biggest problem.
This one image sums up why. This is about 8 seconds before Chris Willock scores. We have 3 midfielders on the pitch, by the way.
Look at that massive hole in the middle of the park. That is where Jonny Howson should be, closing down Willock and preventing the goal. So where is he?
This is when Willock picks up possession. Howson is in an advanced wide area, jogging behind him, completely out of the game. Neither McGree nor Crooks have filled in his position, either.
It is actually a complete *** disgrace that this goal happens. It is a total comedy of errors starting with Jones' awful pass. The midfielders positioning + work rate to track back is laughable.
Until we replace Howson with a defensively competent, physically gifted defensive midfielder we are going to concede goals like this time and time again (spoiler: we already do, same thing happened versus West Brom).
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Coming back from the match yesterday, I think it showed us all what we already knew; we are still 5-6 players away from being a top team and that we are incredibly inconsistent.
For me though, perhaps controversially, I really don't think we are well suited to this 3-5-2 system at all.
The back 3 should be the strongest part of the team on paper but I don't think it suits Fry or McNair. McNair is a midfielder for me, and Fry is not mobile enough to play as a wide centre back. I haven't seen enough of Lenihan to judge yet but I get the feeling he would feel more comfortable in a 2 as well. Bola should be nowhere near the team as a centre-half and I think Dijksteel is probably the only one who suits the wide centre-back role.
I think Jones and Giles are very average defenders, but good wingers. Giles in particular would be unbelievable at left wing. Jones needs to pull his finger out, for me. He was awful yesterday, both in possession and out of it. I don't think either are at their best as wing backs. Defensive responsibility tires them out and means after 60 minutes they're both pretty shot.
I think the midfield three are not suited to 3-5-2 at all;
Howson is not mobile enough to be the lone holding midfielder. McGree is clearly a #10, he's the best player we have at progressing the ball and driving, but he's trying to do it so deep that he gets crowded out and loses the ball a lot because of it. Crooks, again, plays his best football going forwards, with good goal/assist records, but he struggles to play box to box and impact the game in the midfield.
We are missing a deep-lying playmaker (like Josh Cullen at Burnley) and we are missing a midfield enforcer (in the mould that Clayton used to be for us). Both are integral in a system like this because the game is won and lost on being able to use your midfield numbers to control that part of the pitch. In the first half our midfield was not impacting on the game whatsoever.
Our strikers are probably the only part of the team genuinely suited to 3-5-2 as I don't think any of them could operate on their own. Hopefully that will soon change with reinforcements.
Long ramble there but I just couldn't help but feel if we had set up something like this...
Or even..
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It gets our best players in their best position and shares defensively responsibility more evenly throughout the team. 3-5-2 relies so heavily on the back 3 & the midfield 3 to be defensively spot on and generally I believe it only suits elite teams like Chelsea who's defenders aren't going to make the same amount of errors as ours do.
I know Wilder had success with 3-5-2 with Sheffield United, but he had players who were more suited to playing that system and he built it over 3-4 years. He has come straight in here and tried to apply the exact same philosophy to a squad of players who, for me, just don't have the same qualities as the ones he had before.
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Stoke City vs Boro 2-2 (Watmore, Jagielka (og) )
in Match Day Threads 2022/23 Season
Posted
You can't sit on the ball for 20 minutes without laying a glove on their goal. Always get punished.
It is, quite literally, typical Boro.