tmcc 583 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Changing Times said: Most players have turned us down? This is the same for most clubs. You're looking at big lists of players and you're trying to bring in what you can. Do you really think that's any different to other clubs? Other than the biggest and wealthiest, we're all in the same boat. I didn't ignore your point about massively overpaying for players, I just don't factor that into what we are discussing. If you're talking transfer fees then they are irrelevant to this discussion. If you're talking wages then I'd say we are probably paying the going rate for most of the players we sign. Gestede was a terrible signing for us as an example, but we signed him while he was on a Premier League contract, so the money he was on would have been a lot relatively speaking. Who would you say that we are massively overpaying for recently? I doubt that the likes of Saville, McNair, Dijksteel, Brown, Bola have signed outrageous deals here. but if you read my orginal comment, i said i agree we dont have a problem attracting players, just we overpay for players, that was my whole point and your just choosing to ignore it. also on recent signings, 7 million for saville would be overpaying for me i dont think a london club would have paid the same price, 5 mil for mcnair is expensive for a league 1 player who hadnt achieved much (Just two relegation's). the other players mentioned i dont have a problem with though wouldnt be considered cheap, 2 million for dijksteel who had played 1 season at league 1 level, but the point id make it that neither djiksteel, bola or browne made an impact while here. without do our usual trick of over paying, the players we brought in for somewhat sensible prices havnt really cut it. Edited August 17, 2020 by tmcc Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,219 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: I didnt. I said they werent particularly bad signings in response to someone saying our recruitment should hang their head in shame. I dont think they performed for us but the logic behind them signing was solid, most people backed it at the tim and we didnt lose much money on either. So in the grand scheme of things, no they werent particularly bad signings when you consider some of the other wastes of space and money over the years. I have no problems with us taking some risks like the aforementioned when they come with good pedigree and reputation. I wont criticise those signings. Its the ones like gestede, guerdiora, saville etc that you could see failing from a mile off - those are the unforgivable signings. Apologies, I took your earlier post as talking them up. My mistake 👍 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ManBearPig 1,833 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 @Changing Times @tmcc I think Tmcc said what I was trying to say in a shorter way with words. When in a head on race, players don’t seem to fancy us and will opt to go elsewhere. So far this is the trend of this season and whilst it can’t be proved 100% who we have / have not gone in for, that is going through snippets of paper talk and itk chat (Only the Boro scouting department will be able to have the concrete knowledge). Whilst CT you bring up the players we have signed in precious seasons, is it fair that we could offer them either a high wage, or the lure of premier league football? I am arguing that in having to step away from this approach, is what is going to prevent us acquiring players instead of our championship rivals. The gazette said on 9th April, 2018. “Boro had splashed out in the promotion season and wages increased from £21m to £28.6m, in itself a massive investment in the second tier. But the step up to the Premier League brought a quantum leap with wage costs going up to £57.1m.” So the players you listed in the premier league season and prior could be attributed to coming due to higher wages? I tried to find graphs and figures of our wages but I couldn’t find them for each year from the same source. But would we be okay to assume that until recently, the Woodgate era, we have been able to offer above the normal levels of player wages or a high transfer fee. Not the highest, but among the top 6 at the very least I’d say. My main argument is about the here and now, and that when put on a level playing field, why would players come to Boro? Arguably so far the players have come to us because of the big transfer fees or high wages. (Evidenced by us having to now cut our cloth accordingly), Now that we find ourselves off the pedestal of being able to do that, I believe that our targets won’t choose us, for a number of different reasons. Unless you disagree? I’m not personally saying the area is poor or having a dig at the north east at all. But when we identify players and another team enters the race? we never seem to get them, or very rarely. When we have been able to do that it is through high wages or when in the premier league. Similarly, when a loan target has the choice of coming to us over other people, would they often pick us over them? Doubtful. Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,219 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, tmcc said: but if you read my orginal comment, i said i agree we dont have a problem attracting players, just we overpay for players, that was my whole point and your just choosing to ignore it. also on recent signings, 7 million for saville would be overpaying for me i dont think a london club would have paid the same price, 5 mil for mcnair is expensive for a league 1 player who hadnt achieved much (Just two relegation's). the other players mentioned i dont have a problem with though wouldnt be considered cheap, 2 million for dijksteel who had played 1 season at league 1 level, but the point id make it that neither djiksteel, bola or browne made an impact while here. without do our usual trick of over paying, the players we brought in for somewhat sensible prices havnt really cut it. I don't really get what you're talking about? You're saying that a club in a different area of the country wouldn't have paid the same fees for those players? Why would Millwall sell Saville for a lower fee to a club based in London? I think that's nonsense unless I'm misunderstanding your point? Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,219 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, ManBearPig said: @Changing Times @tmcc I think Tmcc said what I was trying to say in a shorter way with words. When in a head on race, players don’t seem to fancy us and will opt to go elsewhere. So far this is the trend of this season and whilst it can’t be proved 100% who we have / have not gone in for, that is going through snippets of paper talk and itk chat (Only the Boro scouting department will be able to have the concrete knowledge). Whilst CT you bring up the players we have signed in precious seasons, is it fair that we could offer them either a high wage, or the lure of premier league football? I am arguing that in having to step away from this approach, is what is going to prevent us acquiring players instead of our championship rivals. The gazette said on 9th April, 2018. “Boro had splashed out in the promotion season and wages increased from £21m to £28.6m, in itself a massive investment in the second tier. But the step up to the Premier League brought a quantum leap with wage costs going up to £57.1m.” So the players you listed in the premier league season and prior could be attributed to coming due to higher wages? I tried to find graphs and figures of our wages but I couldn’t find them for each year from the same source. But would we be okay to assume that until recently, the Woodgate era, we have been able to offer above the normal levels of player wages or a high transfer fee. Not the highest, but among the top 6 at the very least I’d say. My main argument is about the here and now, and that when put on a level playing field, why would players come to Boro? Arguably so far the players have come to us because of the big transfer fees or high wages. (Evidenced by us having to now cut our cloth accordingly), Now that we find ourselves off the pedestal of being able to do that, I believe that our targets won’t choose us, for a number of different reasons. Unless you disagree? I’m not personally saying the area is poor or having a dig at the north east at all. But when we identify players and another team enters the race? we never seem to get them, or very rarely. When we have been able to do that it is through high wages or when in the premier league. Similarly, when a loan target has the choice of coming to us over other people, would they often pick us over them? Doubtful. Jesus Christ, it's not the trend of this season! We haven't missed out on loads of players ffs. We've signed one player and missed out on a couple, that's it. Who are all of these players that we've missed out on? Unless I'm being thick here, you seem to be saying that it's harder for us to sign players when we aren't in the Premier League and/or when we have less money to spend? That's the same for most of the clubs in the English football pyramid. There are 72 league clubs that can't offer Premier League football and there are probably 65 clubs that can't simply offer more money to a player (allowing for parachute payments to recently relegated clubs). This can't come as a revelation to you, so I don't really understand what you're getting at? It's obvious isn't it? It's not something that only relates to us however, it's most of English football! 3 Link to post Share on other sites
tmcc 583 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Changing Times said: I don't really get what you're talking about? You're saying that a club in a different area of the country wouldn't have paid the same fees for those players? Why would Millwall sell Saville for a lower fee to a club based in London? I think that's nonsense unless I'm misunderstanding your point? i was particularly singling out the Saville transfer, but i do think, historically we pay more than other clubs would have to pay both in fees and contracts offered. i think that its quite a common problem for boro as a club that we pay to much for players, the Window under Monk being a good example. in fact Newcastle, Sunderland and boro have been on record discussing the difficulty they face attracting players to the north-east. on the Saville transfer, i think theres more player power if the club coming in for them is actually an attractive prospect. in this Era where players hold alot of power in transfers ( I know this window it has shifted back), if they are really keen to move to the club thats in for them, i think that can pressure clubs to accept lower bids. MIddlesbrough isnt an really an attractive prospect and it certainly wasnt under pulis, so i doubt Saville would have been pressuring the club to let him move to Middlesbrough as much as he might if it was london based club. Edit, i would also add that i think it would be naive to think that each club would pay the exact same amount for each player, i think our history shows that negotiating isnt our strong point so i dont see it as nonsensical to thing other clubs would pay less than us. Edited August 17, 2020 by tmcc Link to post Share on other sites
boro_fan_in_brum 604 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Wow, it's heavy in this thread... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,219 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, tmcc said: i was particularly singling out the Saville transfer, but i do think, historically we pay more than other clubs would have to pay both in fees and contracts offered. i think that its quite a common problem for boro as a club that we pay to much for players, the Window under Monk being a good example. in fact Newcastle, Sunderland and boro have been on record discussing the difficulty they face attracting players to the north-east. on the Saville transfer, i think theres more player power if the club coming in for them is actually an attractive prospect. in this Era where players hold alot of power in transfers ( I know this window it has shifted back), if they are really keen to move to the club thats in for them, i think that can pressure clubs to accept lower bids. MIddlesbrough isnt an really an attractive prospect and it certainly wasnt under pulis, so i doubt Saville would have been pressuring the club to let him move to Middlesbrough as much as he might if it was london based club. We were more attractive than Millwall though. I just don't agree at all with what you're saying here. Clubs want the best deals they can get. I'm sure Saville got more money here than he was on at Millwall but I doubt Millwall would have sold him to say QPR for £4m rather than us for £7m. The influence that players have can obviously be quite strong but it's not absolute. I've already said what, to me, are the two biggest factors in a player's decision who to sign for - the contract and the career prospects. We're in the same boat as just about every club in the world. None of it is special to Boro. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nunthorpered 1,920 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 half page essays every response. Sad times on the transfer front 😂 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,219 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Just now, nunthorpered said: half page essays every response. Sad times on the transfer front 😂 More facts in my posts than any of your ITK posts that's for sure 😝 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tmcc 583 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Changing Times said: We were more attractive than Millwall though. I just don't agree at all with what you're saying here. Clubs want the best deals they can get. I'm sure Saville got more money here than he was on at Millwall but I doubt Millwall would have sold him to say QPR for £4m rather than us for £7m. The influence that players have can obviously be quite strong but it's not absolute. I've already said what, to me, are the two biggest factors in a player's decision who to sign for - the contract and the career prospects. We're in the same boat as just about every club in the world. None of it is special to Boro. i think my points been confused some what, apologises i wasnt clear. i agree the club is always gonna take the 7 mil or highest offer, what i was trying to say is in the scenario where only one club is in for him, like it think was the case with us, i dont see them paying 7 million. for example if Fulham or Villa at the time were the lone bidders for him, i think they would have got a better price than the 7 million we paid. I think we paid over the odds and more sensible/attractive clubs i feel would have negotiated a better deal. I hope that makes more sense haha. Edit: on your factors that influence a transfer, i wouldnt agree with not including location as a factor as i do feel it plays a role in the decision to move anywhere. but happy to agree to disagree on that one Edited August 17, 2020 by tmcc Link to post Share on other sites
Borodane 6,246 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 301 pages later and we’ve still only signed Grant Hall😅 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SmogDane 4,052 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Only one club can sign a player .. So the 2 players we "might" have missed out on, several other champo clubs have missed out on too ... And the catch is, we know *** all about who we have been talking to, and what we have offered .. Only rumors If a player was promised the same wages by us and for example Wycombe, Barnsley and Blackburn .. Do people really think, that we would not get the player because of location? It has more to do with ambitions, traditions, the manager and the club fascilities, if you ask me. Like others have stated .. A lot of champo clubs havent signed any yet .. Have faith, weak ones ❤️ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
edinboro 804 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 I'm not that overwhelmed by those we've supposedly missed out on. I was running through a 1st 11 on current squad. Stojanovic Coulson Hall Fry Dijksteel Saville Tavernier Wing Spence Assombalonga Fletcher Not too bad. Needs adding to but we could start the season with that. Link to post Share on other sites
Adamjr9 139 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Just now, edinboro said: I'm not that overwhelmed by those we've supposedly missed out on. I was running through a 1st 11 on current squad. Stojanovic Coulson Hall Fry Dijksteel Saville Tavernier Wing Spence Assombalonga Fletcher Not too bad. Needs adding to but we could start the season with that. Is that positivity? Never! 😅 Link to post Share on other sites
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