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The Summer/Autumn transfers thread 2020 aka TURN DOWN FOR WHAT(more)


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29 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Our issue hasn't been a failure to attract players.  Go through those lists and it's quite clear, to me at least, that our issue has been signing players who weren't up to it or players who were a poor fit for us.  This happened both with and without finances, whether the club was on the up or down and even when we were a Premier League club.  We didn't have to sign these players, they weren't the only options for us, we chose to sign them and in a lot of cases we messed up.  Some signings were ok, some not so good and some screwed us over (like Ramirez).

inspiring tim tebow GIF by Home Free

Absolutely nailed it there mate.

Had 5 managers in this time too.

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1 minute ago, TheHolgate said:

Sorry totally disgaree on just about every point. They were awful signings. Promise, how many games they had played on the top flight, who they had played for in the past doesn't disguise the fact they were no better than what we had.

 

This combined with the fact they totally disrupted the promotion team and were probably on a lot of money proves what an absolute mess the club made that summer 

 theres two ways of looking it from the previous discussion we had on this topic. 

If you sign players who have a proven record and on paper look like the perfect player, thats a good signing. 

the other way is to say if that same player dosent work out  dosent perform for the club, then it constitutes a bad signing. 

i prefer the first method myself, for example jordan rhodes, nobody would argue that it was the wrong idea to sign him, he was the top scorer the football league, the signing made perfect sense in alot of ways.

it didnt really work out for him at boro but i think its harsh to then say thats  he was a bad signing, on paper he ticked all the boxes 3 seasons i a row with over 20 goals at championship level etc. 

i guess it boils to whether you view the transfer on its merits at the time, or view it with the benefit of hindsight. but i think judging a transfer in hindsight is to me unfair as there are so many reasons it may not work out that are impossible to judge before and calculate for, player getting home sick, divorce, family bereavement, not settling in the area, falling out with manager etc . Because of this i think its easier to look at the stats and judge the signing quality based off of that. 

my final point against judging the signing in hindsight would be that a hypothetical, lets say city sign messi, argubably the best player who ever lived, nobody would argue thats a bad signing, but if he only goes on to score 5-10 goals a season for 2 seasons then leaves, the hindsight argument would suggest he was a bad signing. But i just dont think signing the best player in the world could be called a bad signing, regardless of whether it works out not. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Our aim was to avoid relegation and we were in a position to do that up until post January. One significant forward signing in January and valdes/ramirez not disappearing and I firmly believe we would have stayed up and the season would have been considered a success. Some of the signings didn't perform great but they were helping keep our head above water for much of the season, we just couldn't see it through. 

The season doesn't just run until January though.  The signings we made in the summer weren't good enough to keep us in the Premier League, that's what actually happened.  I don't really see how it can be argued otherwise?  They were here, we got relegated, therefore they weren't good enough.

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50 minutes ago, SzilardNemethsCurtains said:

Out of interest what is a DoF going to do when we can't attract players?

I do see your point long term mind but finding a decent DoF and building those contacts won't come quick

That’s true. But we need someone or something to sort the mess out at this football club both on and off the pitch. SG seems to have given that job to first Pulis and now Warnock. The mess that he is making! 

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Just now, Changing Times said:

The season doesn't just run until January though.  The signings we made in the summer weren't good enough to keep us in the Premier League, that's what actually happened.  I don't really see how it can be argued otherwise?  They were here, we got relegated, therefore they weren't good enough.

Its not as simple as that. If we only make one signing and get relegated do you say its because he wasn't good enough? So why do it for 4-5 signings? There's a whole squad there that wasn't good enough in the end. 

We went up with a team of players playing well above their ability in the championship (the years since then have proven that beyond doubt) so we had to build a new side quickly and on not a huge budget in the premief league. It was never going to be an easy task and we fell short but that doesn't automatically mean it was all the fault of the signings. Our best players that season were (in my opinion) negredo, gibson, Valdes, Chambers and de roon. 4 out of 5 of them were summer signings. 

On the other hand, everyone could see what the side was missing after 4 months in the premier league and we failed completely to address it in January. Thats the key factor of why other teams were able to pull away from us. 

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The strategy has been wrong for years.

When we were relegated we should have been targeting the likes of Knockhaert and even Bowen/ Watson.

There was an argument that Bamford and Gestede could have been good enough. Instead we ended up with in effect 5 number 9's with the addition of Britt, Fletch and Braithewaite. Simply ludicrous and shows a lack of planning by both the manager and recruitment team, both of which are appointed by Steve Gibson.

Relegation wasn't the end of the World. Not backing Karnaka in January was a bad move, but not the end of the World. Not keeping Karanka was a bad move (especially sackng him after the window) but wasn't the end of the World either. Appointing Steve Agnew when we weren't actually in a relegation position was baffling and this started the snowball downward spiral we have been on ever since.

Moving from Monk, to Pulis, to Woodgate and now to Warnock has shown we are simply now struggling for an identity and this has been consistently shown with the incredulous transfer dealing over the last 3 years.

Keeping Karanka, or replacing him with a proven manager who could work with the existing set up and add flair players to it was what was needed.

Appointing Agnew was disasterous. Whatever way you look at it though, these decisions are being made by somebody...

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21 minutes ago, tmcc said:

for me its not about attracting players, its the fact that when were in a head to head race to sign somebody, we seems to be losing out. 
for example, in your list, how many of those players did we pay over the odds for or did we face no real competition when signing them? i think alot of players fall into that  and thats the problem for me, not that we cant attract players, just we have to pay more to get them to come here.

I have no idea what the competition was for most of those signings and neither do you.  That's sort of my point.  People don't really know what's going on with potential signings but they've decided we're losing out on lots of players anyway despite the fact that there's no actual evidence for it.  QPR wanted Hall, he chose us, we wanted Taylor, he chose Forest.  What's the difference exactly?  I don't see any at all so why the navel gazing?  Most players move because they get more money or their career prospects are greater.  The players we sign will come here for exactly the same reasons as they'll go elsewhere.

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we've made serious mistakes since the promotion season, and it's got to a point where we are now  not attractive on or off the field, and lack the financial clout we could use to edge it previously.

 

now back to this year

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8 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I have no idea what the competition was for most of those signings and neither do you.  That's sort of my point.  People don't really know what's going on with potential signings but they've decided we're losing out on lots of players anyway despite the fact that there's no actual evidence for it.  QPR wanted Hall, he chose us, we wanted Taylor, he chose Forest.  What's the difference exactly?  I don't see any at all so why the navel gazing?  Most players move because they get more money or their career prospects are greater.  The players we sign will come here for exactly the same reasons as they'll go elsewhere.

yes i dont know for certain the who was in for the players, but the papers do discuss transfers and we get a  good idea of teams that were in for the players because of that. also you completely ignored my other point of pay massivley over the odds for players. finally you've mentioned one transfer where a player chose us other another club, when if we look over the last few windows most players have turned us down, or the ones who did sign got outrageous deals and offers (my other point which you ignored). 

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3 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Its not as simple as that. If we only make one signing and get relegated do you say its because he wasn't good enough? So why do it for 4-5 signings? There's a whole squad there that wasn't good enough in the end. 

We went up with a team of players playing well above their ability in the championship (the years since then have proven that beyond doubt) so we had to build a new side quickly and on not a huge budget in the premief league. It was never going to be an easy task and we fell short but that doesn't automatically mean it was all the fault of the signings. Our best players that season were (in my opinion) negredo, gibson, Valdes, Chambers and de roon. 4 out of 5 of them were summer signings. 

On the other hand, everyone could see what the side was missing after 4 months in the premier league and we failed completely to address it in January. Thats the key factor of why other teams were able to pull away from us. 

We didn't make one signing, we made lots of signings and they contributed very little to us.  That's the relevant point, what they actually contributed to us.   Our best player in that season was Gibson by a country mile and it wasn't even close, which tells you a lot.  I don't think most of those players you mentioned were all that good for us.  Chambers was and Negredo but the rest were much of a muchness.  de Roon wasn't significantly better than Clayton during that season, Valdes was ok at best and if he didn't have the career history, then no bugger would have been talking him up.  Now go through the rest of them as well, Fischer, Espinosa, Guzan, Barragan, Fabio, what did they do for us exactly?

It's convenient to blame the January transfer window because it stunk quite frankly, but the summer window is where the root of our problems were, that's where you do the most business and that's where you need to make the most of it.  Signing a group of players, half of whom do nothing for you, isn't making the most of a transfer window.  The fact that you've called the likes of Fischer and Barragan good signings is laughable to be honest.  Sorry but it is.

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4 minutes ago, tmcc said:

yes i dont know for certain the who was in for the players, but the papers do discuss transfers and we get a  good idea of teams that were in for the players because of that. also you completely ignored my other point of pay massivley over the odds for players. finally you've mentioned one transfer where a player chose us other another club, when if we look over the last few windows most players have turned us down, or the ones who did sign got outrageous deals and offers (my other point which you ignored). 

Most players have turned us down?  This is the same for most clubs.  You're looking at big lists of players and you're trying to bring in what you can.  Do you really think that's any different to other clubs?  Other than the biggest and wealthiest, we're all in the same boat.

I didn't ignore your point about massively overpaying for players, I just don't factor that into what we are discussing.  If you're talking transfer fees then they are irrelevant to this discussion.  If you're talking wages then I'd say we are probably paying the going rate for most of the players we sign.  Gestede was a terrible signing for us as an example, but we signed him while he was on a Premier League contract, so the money he was on would have been a lot relatively speaking.  Who would you say that we are massively overpaying for recently?  I doubt that the likes of Saville, McNair, Dijksteel, Brown, Bola have signed outrageous deals here. 

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10 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

 The fact that you've called the likes of Fischer and Barragan good signings is laughable to be honest.  Sorry but it is.

I didnt. I said they werent particularly bad signings in response to someone saying our recruitment should hang their head in shame. 

I dont think they performed for us but the logic behind them signing was solid, most people backed it at the tim and we didnt lose much money on either. So in the grand scheme of things, no they werent particularly bad signings when you consider some of the other wastes of space and money over the years. 

I have no problems with us taking some risks like the aforementioned when they come with good pedigree and reputation. I wont criticise those signings. Its the ones like gestede, guerdiora, saville etc that you could see failing from a mile off - those are the unforgivable signings. 

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26 minutes ago, "KM" said:

That’s true. But we need someone or something to sort the mess out at this football club both on and off the pitch. SG seems to have given that job to first Pulis and now Warnock. The mess that he is making! 

You can understand why he would have thought Pulis could have brought in experience and change things behind the scenes but he was clueless.

I am hopeful things are beginning to change behind the scenes according to some ITK updates but this season is relying on short term fixes from Warnock, which in fairness to him he is capable of doing. The transfers may just be very late in the window and not necessarily the bigger names people are after

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  • Borodane changed the title to The Summer/Autumn transfers thread 2020 (playing the Chuba?)

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