Borodane 6,246 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, Brunners said: Disagree on this bit. Wings best games all last season came when he was played further up the pitch. It allows him the freedom he needs with less defensive responsibilities. He could absolutely fit as a number 10 IMO. He's just not a number 10 for me. Maybe the furthest forward in a midfield three that plays a 6 and two 8's. He doesn't have enough technical ability for me to play effectively as number 10. He's got a good strike but he can't take a man on and his passing is average. I'm not sure he can make those pinpoint throughballs or recieve the ball and instantely lose his marker. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Borodane 6,246 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 minute ago, SzilardNemethsCurtains said: I dont get the obsession with wingers from our fans, he doesnt need to be a winger in a 433 or 4231. Hes an attacking midfielder as part of a front 3, with energy to press and get about defenders If you don't get the fuzz with wingers then we disagree too much to discuss it. We are so easy to play againt because we have zero width. Overload the central areas and we are going absolutely nowhere. No pace or creativity. Just pedestrian pace and no penetration. Link to post Share on other sites
SzilardNemethsCurtains 2,844 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Just now, Borodane said: If you don't get the fuzz with wingers then we disagree too much to discuss it. We are so easy to play againt because we have zero width. Overload the central areas and we are going absolutely nowhere. No pace or creativity. Just pedestrian pace and no penetration. I didnt say that though, I said I dont get the obsession in that every attacking player needs to be a winger. Tav can play with width and can play through the centre, most good sides will have a front 3 which includes those that have the attributes of a typical winger who will be more interested in being out wide and mixed with those who will move more centrally. The only reason we dont see Tav as a wide player is because of Woodgates obsession with him being a midfielder but he could easily play there, ideally though with pace options in the side and from the bench 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tarmo 39 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Brunners said: Disagree on this bit. Wings best games all last season came when he was played further up the pitch. It allows him the freedom he needs with less defensive responsibilities. He could absolutely fit as a number 10 IMO. He’s much better further up but not convinced he has enough about his game to be a proper ‘10’ and make us tick going forwards like Ramirez or even Tomlin. Different types of player I suppose, but he needs to show a marked improvement from what we seen last season. Don’t think Woodgate’s experiment of playing him deep helped at all like. basically what BoroDane said up there Link to post Share on other sites
Brunners 7,952 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Borodane said: He's just not a number 10 for me. Maybe the furthest forward in a midfield three that plays a 6 and two 8's. He doesn't have enough technical ability for me to play effectively as number 10. He's got a good strike but he can't take a man on and his passing is average. I'm not sure he can make those pinpoint throughballs or recieve the ball and instantely lose his marker. Think there's some recency bias here. He's shown before that he has a great passing range. There's a reason he was so good under Pulis. He had a sophomore slump last year and basically everything he did looked worse, but it's not that he doesn't ahve the passing ability. This is his make or break year, whatever position he plays. Link to post Share on other sites
Brunners 7,952 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Just now, Tarmo said: He’s much better further up but not convinced he has enough about his game to be a proper ‘10’ and make us tick going forwards like Ramirez or even Tomlin. Different types of player I suppose, but he needs to show a marked improvement from what we seen last season. Don’t think Woodgate’s experiment of playing him deep helped at all like. No I agree he's probably not going to be your technically tricky number 10, but I think he showed during his first season that he does have a good eye for a pass and I think you can play around him pretty comfortably further up the pitch. Plus the further up the pitch he is, the more often you'll get to make use of his biggest talent. Last season went horribly for him (mostly, he had the odd good game here and there, usually when played more advanced) but as you say, I think he was forced into a role he definitely isn't suited to and it just seemed to throw his confidence off a cliff. This is his make or break year. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tarmo 39 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Pulis did try to warn us he wasn’t ready and still had a lot to learn, maybe we all got carried away a bit. Hope he comes good but we shall see. If he even ends up staying that is. Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,695 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 @Brunners to be honest I think its you with the bias here because you happen to really like him! He didnt have a great first season either. He was part of that horrible pulis attack, he only started 19 games and was in and out of the team constantly due to inconsistent displays. Wing has never had a really good run of form for us- good games here and there, absolute screamers in a few games but thats it. He's a much more limited player than you give him credit for imo. Link to post Share on other sites
Dynamo Kev 1,552 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, SzilardNemethsCurtains said: I dont get the obsession with wingers from our fans, he doesnt need to be a winger in a 433 or 4231. Hes an attacking midfielder as part of a front 3, with energy to press and get about defenders the obsession with wingers is simple. most of us older lot 40+ will remember the good old days of traditional wingers being the exciting players who torture teams and create all the changes. eg ripley and hendrie back in the day. from my view we dont have that at all. put them two in our team and wowsers you lads to young to remember them would be amazed how much more dangerous and exciting our games would get. Link to post Share on other sites
LBP 3,012 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Nooo please don't let it start already, the 'he'll do a job out wide when he clearly isn't quick or direct enough' party trick we do every single season for the past 4 after missing out on all our wide targets 16/17 - Miss out on Deulofeu, Ziyech, Burke, Antonio, Praet, Ghezzal etc - It's okay we'll play Stuani and ageing Downing out wide 17/18 - Miss out on McGeady, Ojo, can't remember who else - It's okay we'll play Braithwaite or Fletcher out wide 18/19 - Miss out on Bolasie, Phillips, Rafa Silva, Grosicki AND sell Traore - It's okay we'll just play 5 Centre Midfielders 19/20 - Miss out on Kent, Diangana, Ibe, El Younoussi, etc - It's okay we'll play Fletcher out wide again and actually give Marvin Johnson a starting spot 20/21 - ? Maybe we should do it again to be honest, create an award for the league's lowest scoring, most boring, slowest, attacking side and look to do the back to back to back 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SzilardNemethsCurtains 2,844 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Dynamo Kev said: the obsession with wingers is simple. most of us older lot 40+ will remember the good old days of traditional wingers being the exciting players who torture teams and create all the changes. eg ripley and hendrie back in the day. from my view we dont have that at all. put them two in our team and wowsers you lads to young to remember them would be amazed how much more dangerous and exciting our games would get. Dont get me wrong mate, I would love another Adomah or a young Downing or just any width or pace. I would go as far to say that I would love width and pace on both sides but in modern football its not a prerequisite for success. Even in our promotion season we only had Adomah with the other wide player, which was mainly Stuani usually coming inside to join the attack. My point really is we dont need a side with wingers or even a lot of pace to start scoring again, If we had a more dynamic defensive midfielder then we could rely more upon attacking full backs for width for example. I think we can all agree we need to start scoring goals though and as @Borodane stated, stop being so slow and pedestrian in our build up 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SzilardNemethsCurtains 2,844 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, LewisBoroPalfrey said: Nooo please don't let it start already, the 'he'll do a job out wide when he clearly isn't quick or direct enough' party trick we do every single season for the past 4 after missing out on all our wide targets 16/17 - Miss out on Deulofeu, Ziyech, Burke, Antonio, Praet, Ghezzal etc - It's okay we'll play Stuani and ageing Downing out wide 17/18 - Miss out on McGeady, Ojo, can't remember who else - It's okay we'll play Braithwaite or Fletcher out wide 18/19 - Miss out on Bolasie, Phillips, Rafa Silva, Grosicki AND sell Traore - It's okay we'll just play 5 Centre Midfielders 19/20 - Miss out on Kent, Diangana, Ibe, El Younoussi, etc - It's okay we'll play Fletcher out wide again and actually give Marvin Johnson a starting spot 20/21 - ? Maybe we should do it again to be honest, create an award for the league's lowest scoring, most boring, slowest, attacking side and look to do the back to back to back Even in our promotion season we only had Adomah and briefly Ramirez with pace, agree that is a priority but still think Tav is an attacking midfielder. Worth noting though I dont think we were close to any of those players on that list, with the exception of Ojo and we did speak with Diangana Link to post Share on other sites
Brunners 7,952 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: @Brunners to be honest I think its you with the bias here because you happen to really like him! He didnt have a great first season either. He was part of that horrible pulis attack, he only started 19 games and was in and out of the team constantly due to inconsistent displays. Wing has never had a really good run of form for us- good games here and there, absolute screamers in a few games but thats it. He's a much more limited player than you give him credit for imo. Being part of a horrible Pulis attack is hardly a fair stick to beat him with. Last season, of players who played games in either DM, CM or AMC, he was one of the better ones, and again the stats bear that out. Last season he had the most key passes per game, tied with Howson & Downing, while averaging 10 passes less per game than Howson. He was 4th on our assists list with 3(god we're bad), while only starting 20 games. He contributed to more goals than Saville, Downing, Mikel, Clayton, McNair (obviously) and was only one behind Besic (2g5a) and Howson (1g 6a) but in 2,145 minutes less than Howson & 474 minutes less than Besic. FWIW, he's still 5th in key passes per game this year too. (the 4 ahead of him if you're curious are Tav, McNair, Marv & Roberts). Now I'm not arguing stats are the be all and end all, because they're clearly not. He did not have a very good season this year in a lot of ways. But the prior season under Pulis he was arguably our most effective midfielder. I am a Lewis Wing fan, but I try not to hold any bias. I have called him out plenty for being turd in games this season and I praise him when I think he plays well. Trying to argue the common opinion wasn't that he had had a good first season last year is revisionist history if you ask me. Even then, this year in what can objectively be classed a bad year for him, he STILL managed 7g 2a. Link to post Share on other sites
Dynamo Kev 1,552 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, SzilardNemethsCurtains said: Dont get me wrong mate, I would love another Adomah or a young Downing or just any width or pace. I would go as far to say that I would love width and pace on both sides but in modern football its not a prerequisite for success. Even in our promotion season we only had Adomah with the other wide player, which was mainly Stuani usually coming inside to join the attack. My point really is we dont need a side with wingers or even a lot of pace to start scoring again, If we had a more dynamic defensive midfielder then we could rely more upon attacking full backs for width for example. I think we can all agree we need to start scoring goals though and as @Borodane stated, stop being so slow and pedestrian in our build up we were low scorers when promoted to mate. because we only had one real winger. adomah. then we sold him gaston went awol and that meant a team with zero creativity went down with a whimper, we were pathetic. wingers might not be the be all and end all. but they are certainly key in creating chances and goals Link to post Share on other sites
TeaCider24 12,403 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 I wonder where Ivan Toney will end up, sounds like he's pushing to leave Peterborough. Link to post Share on other sites
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