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The Summer/Autumn transfers thread 2020 aka TURN DOWN FOR WHAT(more)

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

What does it matter?  He was 'flexible' enough to put Howson and Saville out there for example/  Do you think that's what he really wanted to do,r that he made that decision based on a lack of suitable players in certain attacking positions?

That's not flexible, that's jamming square pegs in round holes, the exact thing Warnock is avoiding doing by adapting. 

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Pulis played 3-5-2 as well.

Sorry, but what you're saying is that. as we've failed in the transfer market to date, then Warnock might have to set us up in a different way than he almost certainly wants to set us up.  He clearly wants to play 4 at the back.  He wanted to play it in the 8 games he's already had, even if that meant playing Johnson as a left back, and a central defensive partnership of Friend and Fry.  That he's pragmatic enough to consider something different is the least I'd expect of him tbh.

That's not quite what I'm saying.

I'm saying there's just as much chance that he's looked at what we have, coupled with the realities, plus what he learned from his games last season, and chosen a system based on that. Just because he played 4 at the back with an inherited squad doesn't mean that's what he wants to do for the rest of time.

What I'm saying is based just as much on conjecture as what you are though. He built a 4-2-3-1 around Abel Taarabt at QPR, so it's not out of the question for him to alter his systems based around individuals at his disposal. He played 4-2-3-1 at Cardiff too, I believe? Again, it's a system which can adapt to be closer to 4-3-3, but as I mentioned above, so can 3-5-2. He's also renowned for playing differently at home to away, so I wouldn't expect us to simply play one system for all 46 games. 

I'm not personally a fan of the guy, but I do think he's more adaptable than people believe based on how he's perceived.

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3 minutes ago, Snowblind said:

That's not quite what I'm saying.

I'm saying there's just as much chance that he's looked at what we have, coupled with the realities, plus what he learned from his games last season, and chosen a system based on that. Just because he played 4 at the back with an inherited squad doesn't mean that's what he wants to do for the rest of time.

What I'm saying is based just as much on conjecture as what you are though. He built a 4-2-3-1 around Abel Taarabt at QPR, so it's not out of the question for him to alter his systems based around individuals at his disposal. He played 4-2-3-1 at Cardiff too, I believe? Again, it's a system which can adapt to be closer to 4-3-3, but as I mentioned above, so can 3-5-2. He's also renowned for playing differently at home to away, so I wouldn't expect us to simply play one system for all 46 games. 

I'm not personally a fan of the guy, but I do think he's more adaptable than people believe based on how he's perceived.

I think we are saying the same thing but from slightly different perspectives.  I'm saying he's being forced into this to a certain extent because we haven't done the business (so far) that I think he'd have liked us to do.  I don't believe that his preference is to play three central defenders.

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5 minutes ago, Brunners said:

That's not flexible, that's jamming square pegs in round holes, the exact thing Warnock is avoiding doing by adapting. 

Playing fullbacks in central defence and wingers as wingbacks?  It's the same thing.

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Just now, Changing Times said:

Playing fullbacks in central defence and wingers as wingbacks?  It's the same thing.

Having Howson & Saville play as your wingbacks (which are the two you named earlier) is categorically not the same as having Johnson play wingback.

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Just now, Brunners said:

Having Howson & Saville play as your wingbacks (which are the two you named earlier) is categorically not the same as having Johnson play wingback.

I thought Howson was a good wingback?  I've read that on here quite a lot.  A good wingback and a good fullback even.  Johnson is a winger, who isn't really good enough to play on the wing.  He isn't a left back or a wing back, we just don't want to play him as a winger.  It's exactly the same thing - players being played out of position, it's just that right now you aren't bothered about it.

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9 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I think we are saying the same thing but from slightly different perspectives.  I'm saying he's being forced into this to a certain extent because we haven't done the business (so far) that I think he'd have liked us to do.  I don't believe that his preference is to play three central defenders.

Aye, I think we are, to a point. The only difference is whether it's enforced from failure of business, or whether the players we've missed out on would still be based on this system.

I'm not sure any of the players we've (supposedly/widely reportedly) missed out on would suit a 4-3-3 more than a 3-5-2? Kieffer Moore or Lyle Taylor, as centre forwarss when we already have The Ass and Fletch? Suggests 2 up top, no? Gibson, when we have Hall and Fry? Jordan Williams/Luke Amos, two central midfielders? Those are some of the most widely reported targets we've had from both the MSM and ITKers.

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i think saying hes being forced into it is a bit ott.

hes not being forced to play 352. hes playing it because the players suite the system. he could easily play 433 with a non defensive left back. put jed at right wing tav left or whatever. hes not fudging it like pulis and woody did hes just playing players in positions they are comfortable in.

he might like 433 but if you have an inside forward/ no10 like tav and young lads with legs out wide like jed who are our best players pretty much. adding to that he recognises britt needs to be in a 2. like we all did years ago. so hes playing to the players strengths rather than being forced into something he doesnt want to do. 

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Just now, Snowblind said:

Wmaye, I think we are, kind of. The only difference is whether it's enforced from failure of business, or whether the players we've missed out on would still be based on this system.

I'm not sure any of the players we've (supposedly/widely reportedly) missed out on would suit a 4-3-3 more than a 3-5-2? Kieffer Moore or Lyle Taylor, as centre forwarss when we already have The Ass and Fletch? Suggests 2 up top, no? Gibson, when we have Hall and Fry? Jordan Williams/Luke Amos, two central midfielders? Those are some of the most widely reported targets we've had from both the MSM and ITKers.

Well, aside from my lack of belief in the ITKers knowing everything that's going on, I don't believe that signing any of those players would preclude us from playing 4 at the back, and then whatever he wants to try ahead of that.  Roberts was also one of our supposed targets and he isn't playing in a 3-5-2 and you can add Murphy, Hoilett, Burke, Maddison and probably a few others to that list.  If it makes you feel more positive to think that this is all part of a well crafted plan then it makes no difference to me but I don't believe that's what we have here.

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i personally think NW seeing a cracking player in Tav and sees him as a midfielder so rather than have a rigid 3 or 2 in the middle or have him stuck out wide. hes going to have him in a midfield 3 with two lads behind him. all that energy we'll have out wide with jed coulson and  even Johnson who has some engine on him. means we will open the pitch up and be able to hurt teams. fletch and britt are looking great together. all we needed was a commanding cb like hall. create a solid foundation. and the attacking positions are pretty sorted. we just need to add depth. another cb/cdm/striker and we will have a pretty strong setup. with good cover. 

now we are being coached properly and have a real gaffa the team will flourish. all these diabolical situations we got ourselves in from shocking defending will stop. we'll be a force this season. i think with these early fixtures we will be giving one or two of the fancied teams a bit of a shock.

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11 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Well, aside from my lack of belief in the ITKers knowing everything that's going on, I don't believe that signing any of those players would preclude us from playing 4 at the back, and then whatever he wants to try ahead of that.  Roberts was also one of our supposed targets and he isn't playing in a 3-5-2 and you can add Murphy, Hoilett, Burke, Maddison and probably a few others to that list.  If it makes you feel more positive to think that this is all part of a well crafted plan then it makes no difference to me but I don't believe that's what we have here.

They have been linked, but far less widely than the others. We've not really been heavily /widely linked with any wingers, which I initially worried about, but came to the thinking that there might be a reason for that.

It's nothing to do with positivity. I doubt either system would change the likely outcome of this season considerably. It's simply looking at the info available and making a judgement based on that. It comes back to my original statement - why write off 10-15% of your available first team players by playing a system unsuited to them, whilst having to sign the equivalent of 20%-25% of the current squad back in to make a new system work?

As I've said, I'm not a fan of Warnock, so I have no reason to defend him or his (perceived) choices. I just think it defies logic to suggest he'd want to play 4-3-3 with the players at his disposal and the market as it is. Even 4-2-3-1 would be far more likely, as at QPR and Cardiff.

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1 hour ago, Changing Times said:

 

 

I don't think that would be practical, would it?  What if the club sells the player for a lot less than they paid for him?  Say you sign a player for £50m and you sell him a year later for £10m for example.  The original deal sees you pay that fee over a set period of time but now you'd have to pay all of it off ahead of time?  From a business perspective that wouldn't make any sense at all.

I don’t think that you can buy an asset at x amount on the never never and then sell it during the contract and continue to pay monthly contributions against something that is already gone. Now that is something that would not make financial sense for the lender or the borrower for that matter 

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22 minutes ago, Snowblind said:

As I've said, I'm not a fan of Warnock, so I have no reason to defend him or his (perceived) choices. I just think it defies logic to suggest he'd want to play 4-3-3 with the players at his disposal and the market as it is. Even 4-2-3-1 would be far more likely, as at QPR and Cardiff.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between 433 and 4231?

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10 minutes ago, Tobermory Whitby said:

What, in your opinion, is the difference between 433 and 4231?

Mainly the role of the Number 10. Whether they're a second striker or more of the creative, advanced playmaker in an Attacking Midfield position. The difference from, say, a Macaulley Bonne to a Lee Tomlin. 

In terms of the wingers, someone like Braithwaite is the key example. He's well suited to being the LF in a 4-3-3, but is more limited in being the LW in a 4-2-3-1. Looking at Braithwaite in comparison to Adomah, they're diametcally opposed in the systems they suit, despite both being wide players.

Then there's the role of the advanced CM. In a 4-2-3-1, it's an advanced playmaker in the No. 10 role (again, Tomlin). In a 4-3-3, they can't be quite as advanced with the balance in the midfield, and so the role of the two holding midfielders changes. They need to be a little deeper in a 4-2-3-1, which is where Clayton was the lynchpin in the Karanka system, with Leadbitter operating between the two channels.

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A few home games into the season and people on here will be calling for Warnock's head if he continues 5-3-2 is my prediction 

Our current starting 11 is the exact same system but probably 2 players different than the 11 that got spanked at home by Bristol City and they 2 different players are the Centre Backs, fairly sure after that game the entire forum wanted Marvin Johnson to never play Left wing back again, a brand new midfield who had working legs and some wide players capable of dribbling past 1 defender a season and yet now with the exact same team people are rubbing their hands together at the prospect of it. Why? 

We haven't added any pace, goals, bite, creativity and the season starts tomorrow. Why do people think we won't be the exact same team that struggles to cope with any team that defends against us at home and hits us on the counter?

Yes we'll be a bit harder to beat again but what exactly is going to change about us going forward? Some of the games under Warnock the only attacking spark was Roberts and we've lost him  

 

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