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The Summer/Autumn transfers thread 2020 aka Warnocks free agent bargain bin extravaganza

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4 minutes ago, tmcc said:

cant really compare ourselves with wolves who are part owned by an agent who was able to influence quality players to move there. 

But the Gazette said after Karanka and Orta left that we needed some propa championship players and none of that foreign muck, so Wolves got it wrong unfortunately for them 

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I'm really curious.. people saying Howson, Saville and/or mcnair have had good seasons. What exactly have any of the 3 been consistently good at? I'd say all 3 have been average to below average at everything. 

 

I genuinely think this is a case of our standards being incredibly low. Based on this seasons performances, not one of those 3 would have even been in the squad in our promotion season. They just don't excel at anything. So I'd be shedding them and rolling the dice on someone who may make  a difference. Because regardless of how much of a fan you are of any of the three, not one person can point to a tangible, positive way in which they have made any kind of difference to our form this season 

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1 minute ago, LewisBoroPalfrey said:

But the Gazette said after Karanka and Orta left that we needed some propa championship players, none of that foreign muck so Wolves did it wrong unfortunately for them 

im not sure what point your trying to make, im also not defending our transfers as they have been horrendous since January in the prem. im just stating that comparing ourselves to wolves side who had billionaire owners and were able to use the influence of the worlds biggest sporting agent (jorge mendes) to sign outrageous players in championship isn't a fair one comparison to make.

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28 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Tavernier maybe?

Howson can't defend either but you're talking him up for some reason 🙂 

Spence can defend.  Every time he gets caught out (cos he is young) people highlight it, but those same people are strangely silent when Howson is giving goals away through poor defending.  I'm struggling to think of a goal that we've conceded that Spence was directly responsible for but I can think of a few from Howson.  What happens is that people 'know' that young players make mistakes and can't be relied upon whilst experienced players can be relied upon, well, cos they are experienced and older and all that.  So that's what people see whether it's really happening or not.  

Yesterday is a great case in point of something similar.  Our defenders are all rubbish and don't care apparently.  We concede the second goal and the match day thread is full of people having a go at the defenders.  Who was the last man back?  It was Howson.  Where were our defenders?  They were up for the freekick (barring Dijksteel).  Whose fault is it?  Our defenders 😀

As for McNair, he was decent over the first few months but no more than that.  Defensively he didn't give enough but he looked like one of the few who could make something happen going forwards.  He's a strange one though, despite the fact that he has played at the back, when he plays in midfield he seems to forget some of the defensive responsibilities, but it may be that he was being asked to be more attack minded of course. 

£17m spent on Howson, McNair and Saville is an awful lot of money on players who only play well in patches.

Howson isn't a defender, he was played there but isn't a defender so you would expect mistakes.

You must be watching a complete different player to me if you think Spence can defend. Warnock has pretty much said the same as did Woodgate. His positional play defensively is so poor.

It's not just about conceding goals that worries me about Spence, it's the lack of tucking in close to the CB's when we are under pressure that worries me. I haven't researched it and I am sure you will point it out to me like usual if I am wrong, but it's like he's been put at RB and hasn't played there in his youth days. Do you know if he was a RB at Fulham youth days? 

Forget age for a second because that's a load of ***, if he's played at RB since he was a kid then he should know his positional awareness as that gets drilled into you at grass roots level.

I agree with you that our defence has been completely shambolic all season and that is one the main reasons where we are, but I don't think it's helped that managers Woody and Warnock are playing players out of position. 

Makoudi was on the bench so why not play him over friend and put friend in his left back to cover Johnson who is also playing out of position? Honestly, it's not rocket science.

Yes, Tavernier is decent but I wouldn't say he's had a brilliant season because he hasn't really been given a run of games for whatever reason. He's someone I would absolutely building my team around.

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19 minutes ago, tmcc said:

im not sure what point your trying to make, im also not defending our transfers as they have been horrendous since January in the prem. im just stating that comparing ourselves to wolves side who had billionaire owners and were able to use the influence of the worlds biggest sporting agent (jorge mendes) to sign outrageous players in championship isn't a fair one comparison to make.

Karanka's agent is Jorge Mendes, we also had Peter Kenyon advising the club and established youth links to Atletico and Juventus I believe as well as obviously Chelsea when Mourinho is there, then we didn't back Aitor in the January Window sacked him and the entire approach was out the window. Even more so after Monk didn't work out when we appointed Pulis and fully ran with the British is Best approach or the overpay for mediocre players strategy, the worst bit though is the Gazette trying to unironically peddle it to the fans after we just watched Wolves copy what we did but with more financial backing and end up in Europa league 

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Just now, diggerlad07 said:

Howson isn't a defender, he was played there but isn't a defender so you would expect mistakes.

You must be watching a complete different player to me if you think Spence can defend. Warnock has pretty much said the same as did Woodgate. His positional play defensively is so poor.

It's not just about conceding goals that worries me about Spence, it's the lack of tucking in close to the CB's when we are under pressure that worries me. I haven't researched it and I am sure you will point it out to me like usual if I am wrong, but it's like he's been put at RB and hasn't played there in his youth days. Do you know if he was a RB at Fulham youth days? 

Forget age for a second because that's a load of ***, if he's played at RB since he was a kid then he should know his positional awareness as that gets drilled into you at grass roots level.

I agree with you that our defence has been completely shambolic all season and that is one the main reasons where we are, but I don't think it's helped that managers Woody and Warnock are playing players out of position. 

Makoudi was on the bench so why not play him over friend and put friend in his left back to cover Johnson who is also playing out of position? Honestly, it's not rocket science.

His positional play is 'poor' because he's young, he's played about 20 games and he's an attacking fullback.  Again, it's not actually that bad but it's made out to be because of his age, which quite clearly is a factor for some people because they highlight younger players mistakes more often.  Spence will get better at those aspects of his game with coaching and more game time.  How many players are the finished article after 20 professional games?  I don't know where he played when he was younger, he looks to me a bit like an unpolished attacking fullback, but he quite clearly needs coaching etc.

I think it is mostly about conceding goals though.  That's entirely what it's about otherwise what are we talking about?  He can't defend but so far he doesn't seem to give away any goals?  How does that work then?  

You've praised Howson despite the mistakes he's made because you would expect mistakes?  That, to me at least, seems an odd way of looking at it?  They were still mistakes that cost us and you're calling him our player of the season.  No issue with him in midfield, other than he's a fairly bog standard Championship midfielder, but as he has been playing at the back for us then that has to be part of our assessment of him, surely?

I don't think our defence has been that bad over the season, as I've pointed out numerous times.  It certainly wasn't at the level of the previous few seasons but it was still average in terms of the Championship.  Our struggles were at the other end.

I have no idea what was going on with Moukoudi after the break.  Absolutely baffled by it all, especially when you look at who played in the that first game against Swansea and in some games since then under Warnock.  Him only getting one game and being played in midfield is puzzling to say the least.

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On Spence - Alexander Arnold was shocking positional wise for the first 2 years of his career- with gametime he's improved it massively. But you could see all along the attributes were there to make a great full back- I think the same signs are there for Spence, though obviously not quite to the same standard.

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20 minutes ago, LewisBoroPalfrey said:

Karanka's agent is Jorge Mendes, we also had Peter Kenyon advising the club and established youth links to Atletico and Juventus I believe as well as obviously Chelsea when Mourinho is there, then we didn't back Aitor in the January Window sacked him and the entire approach was out the window. Even more so after Monk didn't work out when we appointed Pulis and fully run with the British is Best approach or the overpay for mediocre players strategy, the worst bit though is the Gazette trying to unironically peddle it to the fans after we just watched Wolves copy what we did but with more financial backing and end up in Europa league 

 although Karanka agent was mendes, Mendes wasnt actively involved in helping boro, he was and still is at wolves. hes the sole reason they were able to sign players like jota, neves, boly, etc in the championship. i mean Neves was first team player at Porto so was jota they were also both 20 and turned down prem clubs to go to championship wolves. Boly was also playing at porto. The sole reason they joined wolves was the mendes influence and billionaires owner money. Wolves had a net spend of 55 million in the two season prior to promotion despite having no parachute payments to rely. we are not in their league 
ALso comparing Kenyon to mendes in a nonsensical, i mean mendes got espirto santo to join wolves along with convincing 4 players (jota, Boly, Neves, Costa)  who had been playing champion league football the season before to join wolves in the championship, what has peter kenyon done that even comes close to that?

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14 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

His positional play is 'poor' because he's young, he's played about 20 games and he's an attacking fullback.  Again, it's not actually that bad but it's made out to be because of his age, which quite clearly is a factor for some people because they highlight younger players mistakes more often.  Spence will get better at those aspects of his game with coaching and more game time.  How many players are the finished article after 20 professional games?  I don't know where he played when he was younger, he looks to me a bit like an unpolished attacking fullback, but he quite clearly needs coaching etc.

I think it is mostly about conceding goals though.  That's entirely what it's about otherwise what are we talking about?  He can't defend but so far he doesn't seem to give away any goals?  How does that work then?  

You've praised Howson despite the mistakes he's made because you would expect mistakes?  That, to me at least, seems an odd way of looking at it?  They were still mistakes that cost us and you're calling him our player of the season.  No issue with him in midfield, other than he's a fairly bog standard Championship midfielder, but as he has been playing at the back for us then that has to be part of our assessment of him, surely?

I don't think our defence has been that bad over the season, as I've pointed out numerous times.  It certainly wasn't at the level of the previous few seasons but it was still average in terms of the Championship.  Our struggles were at the other end.

I have no idea what was going on with Moukoudi after the break.  Absolutely baffled by it all, especially when you look at who played in the that first game against Swansea and in some games since then under Warnock.  Him only getting one game and being played in midfield is puzzling to say the least.

I'm praising Howson because he has put a shift in and played well considering he was playing out of position. You expect mistakes when someone is playing out of position.

Spence is exciting prospect and has the potential to be a good player, but I absolutely don't see that as a RB. At grass roots you get taught about covering your CB's and tucking in and he doesn't do neither constantly. RWB you can get away with that bit more because it's congested in a back 5 but as part of a 4 you need to do the basics defensively and he doesn't. 

Our whole team defensively as a whole has been shocking all season - forget stats, we have got lucky on many occasions not to beaten by cricket score lines - it's been totally embarrassing. I am not just blaming defenders on that because as a whole you defend, but I can name at least 10-15 games this season where we have come away fortunate to come away with a low scoreline. Even Stoke had clear cut opportunities against us mate

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1 hour ago, tmcc said:

cant really compare ourselves with wolves who are part owned by an agent who was able to influence quality players to move there. 

(EDIT) not part owned by has shared business interests with the owner, is good friend with espirito santo and is acting as a transfer adviser to the club. 

If only a Mendes could be persuaded to look at boro.

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Happy to move McNair on. Has shown glimpses of promise and many say he is a potential Premier League player but I wasnt a fan of his signing to begin with off the back of 2 successive relegation's with Sunderland. If Stoke are interested then it shows his level and ours.

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I'm not really a massive fan of any of the midfielders really but willing to give them a chance as they have had nothing in front of them and nothing behind them.

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the types of players we have are too similar

defensive minded players are too slow

attack minded quick players are inexperienced defensively

midfielders all one paced and similar build - mcnair is the biggest but he falls over and wants a free kick far too often

wide players attacking players --- well I think Johnson is the only one who could fit in this category 

strikers - don't get enough service and generally fudge it when they do

 

all that contributes to a total lack of faith in a playing style, as you're either getting on caught on the break, brushed off in midfield or missing the chances you create.

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1 hour ago, diggerlad07 said:

I'm praising Howson because he has put a shift in and played well considering he was playing out of position. You expect mistakes when someone is playing out of position.

Spence is exciting prospect and has the potential to be a good player, but I absolutely don't see that as a RB. At grass roots you get taught about covering your CB's and tucking in and he doesn't do neither constantly. RWB you can get away with that bit more because it's congested in a back 5 but as part of a 4 you need to do the basics defensively and he doesn't. 

Our whole team defensively as a whole has been shocking all season - forget stats, we have got lucky on many occasions not to beaten by cricket score lines - it's been totally embarrassing. I am not just blaming defenders on that because as a whole you defend, but I can name at least 10-15 games this season where we have come away fortunate to come away with a low scoreline. Even Stoke had clear cut opportunities against us mate

How dare you!  I can't forget stats.  The entire season is based around them so really you have to take them into account plus I'd have less to talk about and how bad would that be for the forum 🤨

We are about average in terms of our defence.  The number of shots we face is also in the middle of the Championship.  What has been worse for us is the number of shots we've faced inside the penalty area, where we are one of the worst.  I think that is what has been noticed and noticeable and that's where the defence is crap has come from.  The simple fact though is it's nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be.  We have a better defensive record than everyone below us and Derby, Bristol City, QPR, Sheff Wed, Stoke and Huddersfield above us.  That's not by chance, not over 45 games.  We've only conceded two fewer goals than Cardiff, we actually had the same record as them before Saturday's game.  However, they have scored 19 goals more than us and that's where the difference is between a team in the play offs and a team fighting against relegation.

All of that is taking into account that we've actually gotten worse defensively under Warnock or since the break at least.  We've conceded 10 goals in 7 games compared to the 50 we'd conceded in 38 games under Woodgate.  We've conceded 3 goals twice already, we only did that 5 times before the break and once after under Woodgate.

I think you're noticing teams having chances against us because we create so few ourselves, so it becomes a bigger issue.  Since the restart we've played 4 teams with poor or relatively poor defensive records - Hull (1st), QPR (3rd), Stoke (6th) and Bristol City (8th).  We failed to score against QPR, we got one near the end against Bristol City, we got a penalty against Hull and against Stoke we scored twice.  It's not much to show playing against weak defences.  On the other hand, we've only really played against Millwall who would be regarded as having a weak attack (6th) and we kept a clean sheet.  We've been playing against sides who score a decent amount of goals and they've done just that against us, as they've done throughout the season.  However, we can't score ourselves to counter it, just as we've been doing all season.  Our problems aren't defensive.

Spence is absolutely a work in progress, I wouldn't argue that.  I think we'll cash in on him if there's interest there, same goes for Tavernier, who are the two I'd say would be most likely to have Premier League interest (not including the even younger lads).  I'd be staggered if the likes of McNair, Saville and that would get that kind of interest so selling those would be to Championship clubs and presumably at a loss.

I just can't agree with how you're looking at Howson.  Mistakes are mistakes, whether he's playing in his natural position or not is irrelevant.  We don't get to tell the EFL that those goals don't really count cos he's not a defender or whatever.  I agree he's put a shift in, he always has done since he's been here, I wouldn't fault him for a lack of effort at all and I think it's commendable how adaptable he's been for us.  I'd give him more credit than certain other players this season, no question.  I just wouldn't say he's been far and away our best player this season.  I'm not really sure we've got a player who could be described in that way anyway to be honest.

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1 hour ago, diggerlad07 said:

I'm praising Howson because he has put a shift in and played well considering he was playing out of position. You expect mistakes when someone is playing out of position.

Spence is exciting prospect and has the potential to be a good player, but I absolutely don't see that as a RB. At grass roots you get taught about covering your CB's and tucking in and he doesn't do neither constantly. RWB you can get away with that bit more because it's congested in a back 5 but as part of a 4 you need to do the basics defensively and he doesn't. 

Our whole team defensively as a whole has been shocking all season - forget stats, we have got lucky on many occasions not to beaten by cricket score lines - it's been totally embarrassing. I am not just blaming defenders on that because as a whole you defend, but I can name at least 10-15 games this season where we have come away fortunate to come away with a low scoreline. Even Stoke had clear cut opportunities against us mate

Out of interest, what position do you think Spence would be a good player in?

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