Neil Warnock, Steve Gibson & Long Term Vision?

[p_mards 683]

As it's looking a virtual certainty that Warnock is going to get the job for next season, it's worth noting both the significant positives and negatives that will result from Warnock being our manager, and also how accommodating his style of football will effect our long term direction once he inevitably leaves. Clearly, Warnock is a very effective manager who knows how to assemble promotion winning Championship teams on a tight budget. In simple terms he's the perfect manager to get us out of the situation we are currently in. I think the timing of us having so many players out of contract, which provides him with such a clean slate to build from next season, is only going to help us implement his style in the short term. I dread to imagine the short term mess that we would have made in such a state of flux under either Woodgate or another incompetent manager who Gibson fancied. I'm confident that if Warnock is here for two seasons then at a minimum he'll have us finishing in the play off spots, possibly even by next season if we can get some good business done this summer. They are signifiacant positives, albeit in the short term.

Whilst I understand the short term logic for Neil Warnock, my key concern is how we will react when he inevitably leaves us. He's 71 year old, seems to prefer it down South and only likes to commit to one year deals; He's the epitome of why modern clubs have evolved towards a sporting director/director of football & head coach combination. Considering he'll probably only sign a rolling one year deal here, it's going to be naïve and short sighted for the club to authorise him to be handing out 3 and 4 year deals. It's why a long term vision within a football club is essential. It will be especially daft in positions such as fullback that are heavily dependent upon what the managers style of play requires from them. For example, in fullback positions Warnock is probably going to prefer more defensively solid fullbacks that are technically pretty limited (e.g. a younger version of Shotton), than say the requirements that someone like Karnaka would want (such as Nsue or Fredericks) as he required his fullbacks to have the engines to consistently overlap the wingers. It would therefore be naive to allow Warnock to sign them sort of fullbacks on a 3 or 4 year contract. However, the question remains of whether Warnock should be given so much short term freedom, despite the potential long term damage.

Gibson's historically knee-jerks between managers with contrasting styles so, if we were to have this sort of "bigger picture" analysis of Warnock's short term transfer activity, this sort of potential limitation on Warnock's transfers is especially important. However, I don't think Gibson has this sort of long term vision of the club. In the past decade, taking Karanka's reign out, we've constantly been in a state of transition with an unbalanced squad and with many players who didn't fit into a new managers plans. That's why we need a more long term outlook. Giving Warnock free-reign would make a lot more sense if Gibson was completely open to appointing a successor who has a similar style of play and man management style. For example, someone like Dyche, Rowett, Allardyce etc. However, knowing what Gibson is like, whenever Warnock leaves us he will have us knee-jerking back to a manager with a more possession based style of play - which will again put us into a state of transition for 3 + years minimum - assuming he sticks with that next manager - due to having players that largely cannot play that way.

Gibson acts in a very similar role to a sporting director in that the decision about manager and style of play from the manager are through him. That isn't even within doubt among fans with common sense. However, local media has had their wings clipped by Gibson over decades of censorship. He is primarily focussed upon acting like a power mad Tory politician and not an effective administrator of the power he holds. The Evening Gazette and BBC Tees have been suppressed by Gibson to the point that they're terrified of highlighting Gibson's incompetence. A proper sporting director would never deviate from the template in such drastic fashion that Steve Gibson does every time he appoints a manager. Whilst I'm incredibly appreciative about the huge funding that Gibson puts in year-on-year and I've got absolutely no doubts about his intentions, the application of his intentions has been absolutely pathetic. He just doesn't have either the long term outlook or self-restraint to see a vision through. That settled template and self-restraint is what seperates Steve Gibson from the likes of Stuart Webber at Norwich and the other successful football administrators.

In the long term I'm an advocate of a sporting director and head coach format as it's key benefit is that, once implemented, when a head coach leaves the long term plan remains and all players still fit the template. That is incompatible with the way Gibson wants to rule as an absolutist King and does not want to vest any of his power into anybody but himself, and places power into underqualified but loyal courtiers like Gary Gill (basically the Chris Grayling of recruitment - absolutely useless), Adrian Bevington (he had zero experience in recruitment), Jonathan Woodgate (again, completely unprepared for the job) & even Neil Maddison (he's currently in charge of monitoring our players out on loan, which calls into question his impartiality on BBC Tees that is already like North Korean state media). Any seemingly disloyal people like Victor Orta were kicked out and had the kitchen sink thrown at him in an attempt to tarnish his reputation - typical medieval King tactics. Everything about it stinks.

To conclude, maybe it's my passion for the mix of football, history & politics, but Steve Gibson through his combination of having a close circle of loyal incompetent "Chris Grayling" courtiers, his control of dissenters and his abhorrence towards vesting powers in others, strikes me as an - albeit well intentioned - incompetent King who is absolutely out of his depth but can't see the bigger picture. Until something drastic changes we're going to suffer in the long term despite Warnock's short term appointment.

[BoroAbroad 192]

Very well said

[smogsterking the Inspirati 799]

Good post. Despite the sh*tshow that this season has been, I do think we will be 'quite successful' next season firstly depending on surviving this season and how we do in the window. Warnock is pretty effective in this league however although we may get short term success we will need another turnaround of playing staff within a couple of seasons. Warnock is a very short term/sighted appointment given his age which is the big concern as what direction do we go in after next season.

[diggerlad07 1,356]

 

In my 31years of supporting the club, I have never felt so deflated with the club which I am sure will be felt with all the fans on here.

The 'NEW' which I mean Red faction do their best to create a positive atmosphere which I think is brilliant for the club, however the moaning generation who boo a sideways pass so we keep hold of possession totally make the whole riverside a doomy place on matchday.

I am embarrassed at times by how poor our home support is and it's because of the things below which have contributed to it.

Warnock more or less has the job which for me is quite worrying especially when he buggers back to Cornwall after a season, leaving players that he bought behind. We will have LEADERS but no creativity and fans will start to criticise that Warnock wasn't the man to get the job - a little too late again! He will do a good job despite his football and get us further up the table which is a positive after what we have had to endure this season.

Lee Johnson, Paul Cook, Nigel Pearson or Chris Houghton would be excellent appointments for this football club. Managers who have experience and we would here for a minimum of 3years putting in foundations to make us a better club as a whole (don't just mean playing staff).

I have no faith in the recruitment team to get it right and we have currently have backroom staff at the club doing multiple jobs that they are currently studying for. (Sports scientists and data analysts). This can be confirmed by the sports journalist who views this page. 

The club is a mess and has been for a long time. Complete shambles for the fans since Karanka walked out after the Rotherham away game with nobody taking responsibility with the poor decision making.

DOF is exactly what's required to make the football decisions imo and it was discussed last summer but we couldn't afford another overhead on the payroll.

Luckily, our big earners have left and from what I was informed there was going to be money to put back into the club in the summer - not sure if that's still the case because of the pandemic or not unfortunately but we need someone to oversee it because Bausor just isn't up for the job.

We all knew this season was going to be hard to digest once Woody was given the job with inept backroom staff, but God the football we have to watch, the tactics we have to see, the bulls**t we have heard from the club and newspapers has made it a lot more difficult. 

Our questions need to be answered because this fantasy is at serious risk of collapsing which will leave us in a ever worse situation.

Nevertheless, the new kits will be released next week and I will go out like a idiot I am and purchase the home and away which will go straight into Mr Gibson's back pocket 😂😂.

UTB!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by diggerlad07

[diggerlad07 1,356]

17 minutes ago, p_mards said:

As it's looking a virtual certainty that Warnock is going to get the job for next season, it's worth noting both the significant positives and negatives that will result from Warnock being our manager, and also how accommodating his style of football will effect our long term direction once he inevitably leaves. Clearly, Warnock is a very effective manager who knows how to assemble promotion winning Championship teams on a tight budget. In simple terms he's the perfect manager to get us out of the situation we are currently in. I think the timing of us having so many players out of contract, which provides him with such a clean slate to build from next season, is only going to help us implement his style in the short term. I dread to imagine the short term mess that we would have made in such a state of flux under either Woodgate or another incompetent manager who Gibson fancied. I'm confident that if Warnock is here for two seasons then at a minimum he'll have us finishing in the play off spots, possibly even by next season if we can get some good business done this summer. They are signifiacant positives, albeit in the short term.

Whilst I understand the short term logic for Neil Warnock, my key concern is how we will react when he inevitably leaves us. He's 71 year old, seems to prefer it down South and only likes to commit to one year deals; He's the epitome of why modern clubs have evolved towards a sporting director/director of football & head coach combination. Considering he'll probably only sign a rolling one year deal here, it's going to be naïve and short sighted for the club to authorise him to be handing out 3 and 4 year deals. It's why a long term vision within a football club is essential. It will be especially daft in positions such as fullback that are heavily dependent upon what the managers style of play requires from them. For example, in fullback positions Warnock is probably going to prefer more defensively solid fullbacks that are technically pretty limited (e.g. a younger version of Shotton), than say the requirements that someone like Karnaka would want (such as Nsue or Fredericks) as he required his fullbacks to have the engines to consistently overlap the wingers. It would therefore be naive to allow Warnock to sign them sort of fullbacks on a 3 or 4 year contract. However, the question remains of whether Warnock should be given so much short term freedom, despite the potential long term damage.

Gibson's historically knee-jerks between managers with contrasting styles so, if we were to have this sort of "bigger picture" analysis of Warnock's short term transfer activity, this sort of potential limitation on Warnock's transfers is especially important. However, I don't think Gibson has this sort of long term vision of the club. In the past decade, taking Karanka's reign out, we've constantly been in a state of transition with an unbalanced squad and with many players who didn't fit into a new managers plans. That's why we need a more long term outlook. Giving Warnock free-reign would make a lot more sense if Gibson was completely open to appointing a successor who has a similar style of play and man management style. For example, someone like Dyche, Rowett, Allardyce etc. However, knowing what Gibson is like, whenever Warnock leaves us he will have us knee-jerking back to a manager with a more possession based style of play - which will again put us into a state of transition for 3 + years minimum - assuming he sticks with that next manager - due to having players that largely cannot play that way.

Gibson acts in a very similar role to a sporting director in that the decision about manager and style of play from the manager are through him. That isn't even within doubt among fans with common sense. However, local media has had their wings clipped by Gibson over decades of censorship. He is primarily focussed upon acting like a power mad Tory politician and not an effective administrator of the power he holds. The Evening Gazette and BBC Tees have been suppressed by Gibson to the point that they're terrified of highlighting Gibson's incompetence. A proper sporting director would never deviate from the template in such drastic fashion that Steve Gibson does every time he appoints a manager. Whilst I'm incredibly appreciative about the huge funding that Gibson puts in year-on-year and I've got absolutely no doubts about his intentions, the application of his intentions has been absolutely pathetic. He just doesn't have either the long term outlook or self-restraint to see a vision through. That settled template and self-restraint is what seperates Steve Gibson from the likes of Stuart Webber at Norwich and the other successful football administrators.

In the long term I'm an advocate of a sporting director and head coach format as it's key benefit is that, once implemented, when a head coach leaves the long term plan remains and all players still fit the template. That is incompatible with the way Gibson wants to rule as an absolutist King and does not want to vest any of his power into anybody but himself, and places power into underqualified but loyal courtiers like Gary Gill (basically the Chris Grayling of recruitment - absolutely useless), Adrian Bevington (he had zero experience in recruitment), Jonathan Woodgate (again, completely unprepared for the job) & even Neil Maddison (he's currently in charge of monitoring our players out on loan, which calls into question his impartiality on BBC Tees that is already like North Korean state media). Any seemingly disloyal people like Victor Orta were kicked out and had the kitchen sink thrown at him in an attempt to tarnish his reputation - typical medieval King tactics. Everything about it stinks.

To conclude, maybe it's my passion for the mix of football, history & politics, but Steve Gibson through his combination of having a close circle of loyal incompetent "Chris Grayling" courtiers, his control of dissenters and his abhorrence towards vesting powers in others, strikes me as an - albeit well intentioned - incompetent King who is absolutely out of his depth but can't see the bigger picture. Until something drastic changes we're going to suffer in the long term despite Warnock's short term appointment.

Excellent post mate and straight from the heart

[Redcar Rioja 1,670]

I get and fully agree with the DOF appointment but it will never happen for reasons that we all know that have been very eloquently and passionately outlined by the above posts. "The Emperors new clothes" gets regularly regurgitated on social media sites  with regards to Boro and for good reason. The concerns about Warnock being appointed to me are understandable but for the brown mess that we are in right now I honestly don't think there is a better appointment.

To have a DOF along with a young, fresh thinking, swashbuckling manager but with competent relevant coaching experience can only remain a fantasy for Boro fans. Anybody who is that good wouldn't want to work under the claustrophobic controls and constant meddling of SG and his hanger ons.

Out of the 91 English clubs (minus Bury sadly) only 8 Managers have four or more years with their current clubs. Football is what happens when managers and clubs are making long term plans which inevitably end with a sacking within 3 years at the very most. I recall reading in the not too distant past that the average  tenure of a manager in England is less than 1.5 years and that the Championship was the toughest league in which to remain gainfully employed. It will obviously change from season to season but I think the average manager/coaches existence at the time in the Championship was less than a year.

So with that in mind going back to Warnock and the length of time that he may or may not be here is (to me at least) not worth worrying about as we know that regardless of who takes over it will be very likely short lived followed by another knee jerk 360 degree reaction from the Chairman (or worse, maybe reverting back again to Woodgate). The best we can hope for is that the current mess is swept up and everywhere cleaned down by NW and just maybe we might get a few months of excitement if only by pushing for promotion rather than by the football on offer. Anything has to be better than and an improvement on this season.

 

[Jamie-H 953]

Hate to break you heart on the DoF thing...

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/neil-warnock-obvious-choice-manage-18614026.amp?__twitter_impression=true

"There is a third way and that’s a wholesale internal restructure that involves the recruitment of a director of football with overall responsibility for strategy, scouting and recruitment with a head coach reporting into him, but that ain’t going to happen anytime soon. "

What other football club keeps a chief executive and chief scout for 5 years despite failing season after season on all fronts?

Until our 'hands on' chairman steps back and gets in new voices and faces it's hard for me to see us going anywhere long term.

 

[p_mards 683]

1 hour ago, Jamie-H said:

Hate to break you heart on the DoF thing...

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/neil-warnock-obvious-choice-manage-18614026.amp?__twitter_impression=true

"There is a third way and that’s a wholesale internal restructure that involves the recruitment of a director of football with overall responsibility for strategy, scouting and recruitment with a head coach reporting into him, but that ain’t going to happen anytime soon. "

What other football club keeps a chief executive and chief scout for 5 years despite failing season after season on all fronts?

Until our 'hands on' chairman steps back and gets in new voices and faces it's hard for me to see us going anywhere long term.

 

Gibson needs to stop thinking like he’s still in the 1990s. Since then football has evolved and we’ve been left behind. He’s not fit to put an effective club structure in place.

[smogsterking the Inspirati 799]

21 minutes ago, p_mards said:

Gibson needs to stop thinking like he’s still in the 1990s. Since then football has evolved and we’ve been left behind. He’s not fit to put an effective club structure in place.

Wouldnt surprise me if Keegan Gullit and Curbishley are on the shortlist

[Borodane 2,518]

2 hours ago, Jamie-H said:

Hate to break you heart on the DoF thing...

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/neil-warnock-obvious-choice-manage-18614026.amp?__twitter_impression=true

"There is a third way and that’s a wholesale internal restructure that involves the recruitment of a director of football with overall responsibility for strategy, scouting and recruitment with a head coach reporting into him, but that ain’t going to happen anytime soon. "

What other football club keeps a chief executive and chief scout for 5 years despite failing season after season on all fronts?

Until our 'hands on' chairman steps back and gets in new voices and faces it's hard for me to see us going anywhere long term.

 

This club doesn’t do long term visions. We have 6 months strategies and start all over each transfer window. 

[Uwe 2,557]

16 minutes ago, Borodane said:

This club doesn’t do long term visions. We have 6 months strategies and start all over each transfer window. 

I disagree. The clubs has 4-5 long term plans in the last 3 years alone 🤷‍♂️

[RiseAgainst 1,706]

Given the amount of money we've spunked on transfers since relegation, to find ourselves potentially dependent on a points deduction to stay in the Championship is an unmitigated disgrace. How many of the players we've signed since relegation have (a) stayed more than 18 months, (b) justified their transfer fee or (c) improved the squad, let alone all three? Randolph is the only one I can really think of who emerges with credit.

Yes, Pulis and Woodgate take a large share of responsibility for filling the squad with unnecessary CDMs and not coaching the strikers. But ultimately Gibson writes the cheques. We desperately need someone who understands the modern game to drag our recrutiment policy above its current pathetic standard, but I have zero confidence Gibson will do that. Instead, we'll continue to throw s**t at the wall and hope some of it sticks.

It's profoundly sad how badly MFC has been run in recent years. And the one man who can improve things seems more interested in rewarding failure than cultivating success. No wonder we're staring into the abyss of League One. Do we have to actually end up there before Gibson realises what a hash he's made of the decisions which matter since Eindhoven?

[LBP 646]

The biggest problem the club faces in my opinion is the same people that spent £11 million on Guedioura and Gestede to try keep us up in the Prem are still at the club about to guide us through the most important squad rebuild in recent years 

[Guest KARANKA KING]

Warnock will build a a good team maybe warnocks appointment as manager was made years ago pulis was maybe put as manager to help stabilise the club by selling traore bamford gibson so the funds of them can help warnock build a team for promotion  

[LinoJo3 756]

6 hours ago, diggerlad07 said:

 

In my 31years of supporting the club, I have never felt so deflated with the club which I am sure will be felt with all the fans on here.

The 'NEW' which I mean Red faction do their best to create a positive atmosphere which I think is brilliant for the club, however the moaning generation who boo a sideways pass so we keep hold of possession totally make the whole riverside a doomy place on matchday.

I am embarrassed at times by how poor our home support is and it's because of the things below which have contributed to it.

Warnock more or less has the job which for me is quite worrying especially when he buggers back to Cornwall after a season, leaving players that he bought behind. We will have LEADERS but no creativity and fans will start to criticise that Warnock wasn't the man to get the job - a little too late again! He will do a good job despite his football and get us further up the table which is a positive after what we have had to endure this season.

Lee Johnson, Paul Cook, Nigel Pearson or Chris Houghton would be excellent appointments for this football club. Managers who have experience and we would here for a minimum of 3years putting in foundations to make us a better club as a whole (don't just mean playing staff).

I have no faith in the recruitment team to get it right and we have currently have backroom staff at the club doing multiple jobs that they are currently studying for. (Sports scientists and data analysts). This can be confirmed by the sports journalist who views this page. 

The club is a mess and has been for a long time. Complete shambles for the fans since Karanka walked out after the Rotherham away game with nobody taking responsibility with the poor decision making.

DOF is exactly what's required to make the football decisions imo and it was discussed last summer but we couldn't afford another overhead on the payroll.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What’s so bloody frustrating is you say we can’t afford one yet we will happily *** away £25k on some bang average journey man. 
I remember some insider on here saying gibson couldn’t afford to keep Kenyon around full time, yet not long after that we’re paying gestede and shotton close to £75k per week!

Does it not make sense to Gibson to sacrifice some crap signing and instead spend money on the running of the club? We’re told that building the foundations means buying good defenders, in reality it’s building a solid backroom team. 
As for our ‘recruitment team’ the fact that it’s headed by an ex salesman and a couple of lads from Teesside uni should tell us all we need to know. I remember last summer one of them had been let go and was hawking his services as a scout via a Facebook status. 
 

everything about us from the half time refreshments to recruiting is total amature hour. We’re like the football version of St. John’s ambulance.

 

This whole post Karanka period has extinguished most of the passion I had for the club. The summer of Pulis when we had to sit and watch our best players drift away just killed it off. That was when I knew that we will never get anywhere as long as things stay how they are. 

I remember during Karankas time here there was always the excitement that he would help us get some class players in and at times he/we did.

However now you just know any ‘exciting’ sounding story’s are just that, story’s. Nothing ever comes of it, every decision you just know will be terrible. The woodgate appointment being the perfect example. All the talk of interviewing jokanovic and ‘scouring Europe’, deep down we all had a nagging feeling it would be woodgate, but nobody wanted to admit it or give up hope that gibson wouldn’t be that pathetic.

Alas we went there, You sit there watching other, lesser resourced teams than us setting up and being shrewdly operated, bringing in players that make sense, just running logically and it hits home just how bad we are.

I have no doubt that if we stay up then we will spend the transfer window trying to sign Adam reach, Gunter and offering friend a 4 year contract. More pathetically unimaginative attempts to fix the glaring issues that we are stuck with season after season because the people tasked to do the job are so incompetent I genuinely believe a handful of our more knowledgeable fans could do better, probably for free.

Edited July 19, 2020 by LinoJo3