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Neil Warnock, Steve Gibson & Long Term Vision?


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16 minutes ago, Dynamo Kev said:

with fry playing we never seem to get done in behind the defense. without him it seems nearly every game. dijksteel and tavs work rate and energy on the right side. they dominated every team we played on that side. we missed one of them but once both were out team never looked the same. next season if we keep bolasie and he is linking with tav and has dijksteel over lapping all the space those two will create i'm sure he would be thriving. we get the correct forward in with him and i'm positive for next season. easier said than done though. we need a keeper who is competent in shot stopping and commanding his area.  

We need a lot of those things but the thing we need the most is a new approach and intent. We won't get promoted from this league playing percentage football, hoping that luck falls on our side every game. 

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As it's looking a virtual certainty that Warnock is going to get the job for next season, it's worth noting both the significant positives and negatives that will result from Warnock being our manager

The Evening Gazette has said that Steve Gibson is against a director of football because it would add another 6 figure salary onto the wage bill. I can't help but question whether that is the true mot

👀Thanks for the invite, really appreciate it.

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12 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

We need a lot of those things but the thing we need the most is a new approach and intent. We won't get promoted from this league playing percentage football, hoping that luck falls on our side every game. 

we need the players to play with it on the group in tight areas to. most of our squad players dont and just lump it. because of the instructions they are given. that is probably because like we seen under woodgate, they are not good enough to play and will lose possession and cause us problems. the main thing with woodgate tactics was losing the ball and instantly putting ourselves in trouble and outnumbering with guys all over the shop. NW stopped that by making us more rigid in shape and telling them to not dally and lump it over the top. at least that's how i see it in a simplified way.

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2 minutes ago, Dynamo Kev said:

we need the players to play with it on the group in tight areas to. most of our squad players dont and just lump it. because of the instructions they are given. that is probably because like we seen under woodgate, they are not good enough to play and will lose possession and cause us problems. the main thing with woodgate tactics was losing the ball and instantly putting ourselves in trouble and outnumbering with guys all over the shop. NW stopped that by making us more rigid in shape and telling them to not dally and lump it over the top. at least that's how i see it in a simplified way.

I disagree that we don't have players good enough to play the ball in a more controlled and purposeful way, particularly since the January transfer window. I wouldn't say any of our defenders are particularly bad on the ball at all, and all of our forwards/wingers thrive with the ball at their feet, not in the air. Not to mention we probably have the worst keeper in the league at long balls. The way we play is completely counter to our individual players strengths and it's purely because it's the only way our manager  knows how to play.

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Out of the teams above us, we only have a better passing % accuracy than Barnsley. We need players who can actually pass a ball, and i'd hope we are looking at improving our midfield 3, as I feel we lack real quality in these positions. Hopefully Mcnair will get more time in these positions next season, as he isn't a CB i'm overly confident in. 

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1 minute ago, HolgateBoy said:

Out of the teams above us, we only have a better passing % accuracy than Barnsley. We need players who can actually pass a ball, and i'd hope we are looking at improving our midfield 3, as I feel we lack real quality in these positions. Hopefully Mcnair will get more time in these positions next season, as he isn't a CB i'm overly confident in. 

Our players aren't told to pass the ball, that's the major issue. They're told to get the ball forward as quick as possible and try to win first and second balls. Our pass percentage will always be in the lower quarter of the league, regardless of who we buy. 

I do definitely agree with improving the midfield - though I'd much prefer it was a midfield two with tav just ahead of them. 

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40 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

I disagree that we don't have players good enough to play the ball in a more controlled and purposeful way, particularly since the January transfer window. I wouldn't say any of our defenders are particularly bad on the ball at all, and all of our forwards/wingers thrive with the ball at their feet, not in the air. Not to mention we probably have the worst keeper in the league at long balls. The way we play is completely counter to our individual players strengths and it's purely because it's the only way our manager  knows how to play.

I commenting on what i thought NW saw when joining and he may have picked his tactic based on what we had then. Not since we had bolasie and kabano. though i agree with you. it is likely that he is just sticking to his old tactics from the 90's of percentage ***.

what i dont like is when a ball playing defender with good distribution (paddy). passes back to bettinelli who like you said is terrible at kicking accurately. he just wellies it up field. wtf doent paddy play it long himself. he must be under instruction to do it. 

earlier in the season when we had spells in games were we actually played it on the floor we looked so much better. it usually involved the young lads doing it. maybe they dont listen to the gaffer enough lol

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This is a post from a member of fmttm called Indeedido about the finances of the club in comparison to Leicester. It gives a great explanation of where we stand as a club as well. It's grim reading...

 

Quote

Gibson O'Neill the Group holding company, holds the 100% ownership of Bulkhaul, Middelsbrough FC and Rockliffe, each as limited companies.
Steve Gibson owns 75% and Mike O'Neill owns 25% of Gibson O'Neill. Broadly that means they own the operating companies within.
This includes the assets, but equally the liabilities.

They are both very wealthy men as a result and good luck to them both.
Had Steve not been so fanatical about Boro - and thought it a decent long term investment punt - then they both would be a lot better off without Boro, that much is indisputable.
Middlesbrough FC owe the parent Group £116m plus whatever they lose this season which is liable to be well in excess of £20m despite the reduction in wage bill, because of Covid.
Middlesbough FC's assets are outweighed by its liabilities (including the money owed to GO'N Group) by £86m (plus whatever we lose this season).
The Club as an entity is a complete financial basket case.
If Steve (and Mike) gave the club away, whoever they gave it to would own all the assets, but would still owe Gibson O'Neill £116m plus this year's loss. They would still only own something that had book value of MINUS £86m (plus this year's loss)

Bulkhaul is so successful that the GO'N Group overall remains a solid operation. Effectively Bulkhaul covers the debt of MFC because Bulkhaul's positive value (reserves) enables it to and Bulkhaul profit refreshes/finances this.
The Nett Liability of MFC is actually covered by the huge nett Asset value of Bulkhaul (and a little by Rockliffe) within the Group.
GO'N's Balance Sheet would show £116m (plus) greater nett shareholder value if somebody would come in and buy the MFC equity £64m and assume the MFC Undertakings of £116m plus. I'm pretty sure Gibson would be delighted with this.
Nobody in their right mind would do this.

Leicester is no more attractive on the face of it than Middlesbrough as a club and certainly not as attractive on the face of it as a Leeds United, or a Newcastle United.
We have similar pulling power/population to draw from and are similarly distance from local rivals. We have similar crowds, stadiums etc etc.

Leicester got a magnificent investor in the Thai family. Investors who have hired better people to make better decisions.
Leicester have a nett asset value of £73m (£160m better than us)
They have double the equity in their club (injected legally by owners) and nearly all of their P&L balance deficit in the Balance Sheet is from last season and Covid where they lost over £60m.
They owe their Group equivalent £137m, so even more than MFC does.
They also have Bank debt of £65m, which we do not.

Overall then what does this tell us.

1. Leicester have a richer owner who underwrites their business with Group support.
2. Leicester's owners have pumped equity into the club on a large scale and this makes the Club a genuine going concern.
3. Leicester's owner has appointed people who have made excellent decisions. They have recruited superbly, traded wisely and created a squad that has performed in the league like we never have and is worth an incredible amount of money not even reflected on the Books. They are transformed from being like us to being not like us at all.
4. Leicester's position is still fragile. A couple more seasons of financial results like the last one and their position will look rather different.

5. Steve Gibson on the one hand is the only reason that MFC is still playing. Without the financial strength that Bulkhaul provides, the model of guaranteeing the systemic book losses MFC makes every year outside the Premier league, would simply not be possible.
6. Steve Gibson COMPLETELY owns and controls the Club and makes every significant decision. This means who works for it, with what scope, under what strategy, with what budget. He makes all the calls. He is entitled to, but he does.
7. Steve can only look to himself as to why his decisions have taken Middlesbrough to the football and financial position they are in, while Leicester's decisions have taken them to theirs.

8. It is about money, of course it is. But it is about so much more than just money.

9. Of course there are clubs who are in worse positions than Boro.
They may have the debt, but without the committed owner.
They may not have a big catchment area or passion and hence limited potential.
They may have no stadium, no training facilities, no assets whatsoever.
They may never be able to attract an owner who can see potential.
There are definitely clubs I would not swap with, but there are many examples of similar clubs far far better led. Leicester are just one.

10. For now, in the real world, Steve Gibson is stuck with us, as nobody else will assume the debt, let alone pay him for the privilege of assuming it from him.
And equally, we are stuck with him, meaning there is nothing we can do about his catastrophic decision making since 2016, or what he will do from now on; or for that matter whether he "sells up", who to, or whether he injects equity into the club or not.
I make no apology for wishing passionately there was another way, but I just can't see it at the moment.

 

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That's a great post on FMTTM. However, it is very much looking at the short-term, which is probably the only flaw I can find in an otherwise reasoned yet impassioned post.

If (just for a name) Red Bull came in, yes, they'd have to pony up a lot of cash in the short-term and take on historic debts. But the financial and brand benefits of reaching the PL are so great, they'd benefit hugely in the long-term IF we got promoted and stayed there. Big 'if', I know, but you can't really put a monetary value on the amount of brand awareness global PL coverage provides in terms of shirt sponsorship alone - it'll be many times the actual value paid in any such sponsorship deal. There are firms here in the UK I'd never have heard of, and still only know about, because of PL shirt sponsorship deals. Multiply that by 200 for all the countries in the world, and there's one reason why someone else might be willing to buy SG out - assuming he wanted to sell, which he may do given the periodic rumours of interest.

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20 minutes ago, RiseAgainst said:

That's a great post on FMTTM. However, it is very much looking at the short-term, which is probably the only flaw I can find in an otherwise reasoned yet impassioned post.

If (just for a name) Red Bull came in, yes, they'd have to pony up a lot of cash in the short-term and take on historic debts. But the financial and brand benefits of reaching the PL are so great, they'd benefit hugely in the long-term IF we got promoted and stayed there. Big 'if', I know, but you can't really put a monetary value on the amount of brand awareness global PL coverage provides in terms of shirt sponsorship alone - it'll be many times the actual value paid in any such sponsorship deal. There are firms here in the UK I'd never have heard of, and still only know about, because of PL shirt sponsorship deals. Multiply that by 200 for all the countries in the world, and there's one reason why someone else might be willing to buy SG out - assuming he wanted to sell, which he may do given the periodic rumours of interest.

I'd have us turn into RB Boro tomorrow. They run their sport teams superbly and have a track record of building success (F1 team, Salzburg, Leipzig).

Plus we could have a Roary vs Red Bull mascot wrestling match every HT to liven up the atmosphere.

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4 hours ago, Humpty said:

This is a post from a member of fmttm called Indeedido about the finances of the club in comparison to Leicester. It gives a great explanation of where we stand as a club as well. It's grim reading...

 

 

Thanks - thats a brilliant (if rather depressing) summary of where the club is...and why things aren't likely to change any time soon.

 

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3 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

I'd have us turn into RB Boro tomorrow. They run their sport teams superbly and have a track record of building success (F1 team, Salzburg, Leipzig).

Plus we could have a Roary vs Red Bull mascot wrestling match every HT to liven up the atmosphere.

But then we'd become everything we mock the likes of Man City, PSG, Real Madrid for being.

I think I'd rather us remain mediocre and retain our integrity, than sell out like that.

I'd rather take the "third option" - not too different to what happened with Leicester. We get the investment, management etc. that can take us forward, without becoming an extension of a multinational corporation. Little more than a ball-kicking advertising campaign.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

But then we'd become everything we mock the likes of Man City, PSG, Real Madrid for being.

I think I'd rather us remain mediocre and retain our integrity, than sell out like that.

I'd rather take the "third option" - not too different to what happened with Leicester. We get the investment, management etc. that can take us forward, without becoming an extension of a multinational corporation. Little more than a ball-kicking advertising campaign.

 

 

Maybe. I think all complaints about integrity would go out the window if we had Kevin De Bruyne bossing the midfield instead of George Saville, like.

One of those isn't it. You'd feel dirty, but you'd be too drunk on success to care. With the way football has gone in the last 20 years, with all sense of healthy competition and financial parity out the window, I feel like I'd rather ride the devil's train than be stuck behind.

I wouldn't want us to become some random foreign businessman's play thing, but if it came to something like Red Bull, who have set a precedence of success for their purchases, I'd be down for it.

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At some future point one of these Billionaire business men will tire of their plaything or probably more likely over extend themselves and consequently find themselves in a financial mess. The fallout from a "big" Club going to the wall or on the brink of extinction will hopefully bring football back from the precipice of its own greedy making. 

I wonder how structurally solid and viable the likes of Man City, Chelsea etc would be if their owners pulled the plug? 

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28 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

At some future point one of these Billionaire business men will tire of their plaything or probably more likely over extend themselves and consequently find themselves in a financial mess. The fallout from a "big" Club going to the wall or on the brink of extinction will hopefully bring football back from the precipice of its own greedy making. 

I wonder how structurally solid and viable the likes of Man City, Chelsea etc would be if their owners pulled the plug? 

I think thats the case for every big club spending stupid wages pretty much. If that happened the whole footballing world would come crashing down

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