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Neil Warnock, Steve Gibson & Long Term Vision?


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14 minutes ago, Downsouth said:

We can point fingers all over the place but simply MFC lost their way some time ago for reasons that might not be self evident but fair to say  the wheels came off.

I look at so many of the current PL and Championship teams, we were equal and in many cases better than most, something has held us back whilst others sorted themselves out and steadied things

Not backing Karanka in January was criminal in retrospect. Gibson wanted Karanka to walk or at least have the fans turn against him. I’m not saying that we would have definitely stayed up, but having Agnew in charge was the white flag to where we are now in my opinion.

 

 

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As it's looking a virtual certainty that Warnock is going to get the job for next season, it's worth noting both the significant positives and negatives that will result from Warnock being our manager

👀Thanks for the invite, really appreciate it.

The Evening Gazette has said that Steve Gibson is against a director of football because it would add another 6 figure salary onto the wage bill. I can't help but question whether that is the true mot

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6 hours ago, Neverbefore said:

You named 3 players out of the 23 that warnock had brought in in his 16 months here. Warnock has been more than backed. 

We lost Spence and coulson but signed two defenders as well,  so the numbers are the same as last season. Warnock decided to use these two defensive signings to bring in 2 players who couldn't possibly play 3 games a week. That's on him. 

Where on earth to begin with your comment.

Firstly show me where i said he hasn’t been backed with players? My point is they are not all of his choosing, not unlike Karanka and Southgates eras. Alves, Forshaw, Rhodes, Downing were all gifts from the chairman as it seems Payero, Lea-Siliki and Sporar are. There may well be others.

 

We lost Spence and Coulson after we signed Peltier and Bamba and lost Fisher, not even like for like, Peltz and Sol are both Warnock signings yes. Do you think Warnock is pleased he has lost Coulson and Spence without replacements, no he wasn’t and still isn’t, he is p****d of about it!! Only a fool would think he was in agreement, we are weaker in defence this year, that is clear to anyone. We can’t be 100% sure who agreed to what, but Morsy told the world that Middlesbrough players are at times sold above the managers head, not just bought above them.

If you can’t see that players being parachuted in and out without the full say of the manager is then likely to cause some ructions, then I am lost for words. Warnock is trying to accommodate them to be fair to him, but blame him for their performance, nah. Was Warnock to blame for Fry’s woeful defending for their first or Hall’s shambolic defending at that corner, did he train them to do what they did…. clearly not. He is just a convenient target for some peoples prejudiced opinion from before he was even appointed and others who think if we aren’t in the top 6 the manager is always at fault. He has an imbalanced squad that is not all of his doing.

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31 minutes ago, DocMartin said:

Where on earth to begin with your comment.

Firstly show me where i said he hasn’t been backed with players? My point is they are not all of his choosing, not unlike Karanka and Southgates eras. Alves, Forshaw, Rhodes, Downing were all gifts from the chairman as it seems Payero, Lea-Siliki and Sporar are. There may well be others.

 

We lost Spence and Coulson after we signed Peltier and Bamba and lost Fisher, not even like for like, Peltz and Sol are both Warnock signings yes. Do you think Warnock is pleased he has lost Coulson and Spence without replacements, no he wasn’t and still isn’t, he is p****d of about it!! Only a fool would think he was in agreement, we are weaker in defence this year, that is clear to anyone. We can’t be 100% sure who agreed to what, but Morsy told the world that Middlesbrough players are at times sold above the managers head, not just bought above them.

If you can’t see that players being parachuted in and out without the full say of the manager is then likely to cause some ructions, then I am lost for words. Warnock is trying to accommodate them to be fair to him, but blame him for their performance, nah. Was Warnock to blame for Fry’s woeful defending for their first or Hall’s shambolic defending at that corner, did he train them to do what they did…. clearly not. He is just a convenient target for some peoples prejudiced opinion from before he was even appointed and others who think if we aren’t in the top 6 the manager is always at fault. He has an imbalanced squad that is not all of his doing.

So would you rather have let warnock have full control over all signings, knowing full well he's going to be here for a year and then we are going to attempt to change the philosophy of the football club? You'd rather we be left with his types of players, who would be useless for the new manager, on 3 or 4 year contracts? He has signed more than enough players of his own type to succeed in what he's trying to do if he had a bloody clue. Gibson and scott have our long term future to think about, not just our one last season of long ball kick and rush percentage football.

 

You keep going on about losing Spence and coulson. Spence played the majority of last season as a winger, that's how Warnock seen him, so he isn't even a factor in the defensive imbalance. He played Marvin bloody Johnson at right back ahead of him at the end of last season. He's started coulson 5 times in his time at the club, and most of those were as a winger or a number 10. Again, he's not considered a loss for Warnock so why are you defending him by using these players as examples?

Yes, he needed a left back. But also peltier and bamba were not the types of players we needed. So those resources could have been better used. And if you believe his interviews, he's refusing to sign foreign left backs so again, he's limiting our pool of players we can make signings from. Once again, warnocks fault.

Do you think he's doing a good job? Do you honestly think that with the squad we have that we are a team who should be getting 3 points from coventry, forest and Blackpool? Or 9 wins from 34 is it in 2021?

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1 hour ago, Neverbefore said:

So would you rather have let warnock have full control over all signings, knowing full well he's going to be here for a year and then we are going to attempt to change the philosophy of the football club? You'd rather we be left with his types of players, who would be useless for the new manager, on 3 or 4 year contracts? He has signed more than enough players of his own type to succeed in what he's trying to do if he had a bloody clue. Gibson and scott have our long term future to think about, not just our one last season of long ball kick and rush percentage football.

 

You keep going on about losing Spence and coulson. Spence played the majority of last season as a winger, that's how Warnock seen him, so he isn't even a factor in the defensive imbalance. He played Marvin bloody Johnson at right back ahead of him at the end of last season. He's started coulson 5 times in his time at the club, and most of those were as a winger or a number 10. Again, he's not considered a loss for Warnock so why are you defending him by using these players as examples?

Yes, he needed a left back. But also peltier and bamba were not the types of players we needed. So those resources could have been better used. And if you believe his interviews, he's refusing to sign foreign left backs so again, he's limiting our pool of players we can make signings from. Once again, warnocks fault.

Do you think he's doing a good job? Do you honestly think that with the squad we have that we are a team who should be getting 3 points from coventry, forest and Blackpool? Or 9 wins from 34 is it in 2021?

I think you are reading and interpreting what you want to get angry about rather than what i actually said. I expect every manager to have his approval on all signings even Warnock, even though he wont be here in a years time.

Peltier was signed as cover for Fisher who we knew was out for a long while, we absolutely needed him. He clearly can plug a gap, not ideal, but he did ok at LB. we absolutely needed another CB. McNair is useless in a back 4 but ok in a back 3.

Like I say, I expect every manager to plan for their team and have their approval over the choice of an owner. As for Scott, we have no way of knowing how successful he will be, what his Job description is or how much autonomy he will have, you are peeing in the wind if you hazard an answer. Gibson has always been hands on,, i don’t see that changing sadly. Since 2006 the owners vision has been wrong more than right, as have his appointments. Don’t take that to mean I am ungrateful for his efforts, without him, we’d not have a club, but goodness me he is due a right decision. I know he is trying his utmost but is having to do so with an imbalanced squad. He does not sign players, that isn’t his job it is Gibson and Bausor that do a deal or walk away. They have tried hard to fix the final third with more pace, flair and finishing, unfortunately the defence has been holed as a result. 
 

I am not suggesting Spence and Coulson were great players, but they are better than nothing. Are you suggesting Warnock prefers Jones as a LB to Coulson? He doesn’t, he is having to make do and mend.  We have no holding midfielder. Howson is doing a job but it is not his best position. He is not refusing to sign foreign left backs at all, you are spinning his comments. He said they haven’t found anyone that fits the bill after being unable to fund UK based LB’s. Why you interpret it as a refusal is odd when he had no say over Morsy and some other signings is beyond silly. Getting a player to agree to come knowing they are going to be mere cover, from abroad especially, in a pandemic too, when you have no money, will not be a doddle, it isn’t like a pic and mix at the cinema. 
 

Get off his back and support his efforts for now, he is not trying to set us up to fail, he has the best record of any manager in the league, but that was with his mix of players, blame the players for their part in the poor performances too and the goals we concede. Warnock deserves some criticism but it needs to be for his failures, not those of others. You can rejoice his departure come May which isn’t long for you to wait. 

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14 hours ago, DocMartin said:

Get off his back and support his efforts for now, he is not trying to set us up to fail, he has the best record of any manager in the league, but that was with his mix of players, blame the players for their part in the poor performances too and the goals we concede. Warnock deserves some criticism but it needs to be for his failures, not those of others. You can rejoice his departure come May which isn’t long for you to wait. 

He's also the manager that's spent the most time in this division, but his record from 30 years ago means absolutely nothing. All in means is that it's evidence that he hasn't developed his game in a generation of football. It's the same dire stuff that was succesful while I was still a young lad discovering football. While he is not setting us to fail, he is certainly not setting us up to play watchable football either. We play one semi decent half of football at most. Either the team is woefully unprepared for kickoff or it goes completely wrong at half time. Either way it's a stark reflection of the guy in charge. Either he's lost the players or he doesn't have enough cloggers to play his prefered style of shithousery. So if we're not willing to let him fill up the squad with Peltiers, Bambas and Ikpeazus we should have let him go in the summer. As it is we're willingly wasting a year on nothing but frustrations that does nobody any good.

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14 hours ago, DocMartin said:

Get off his back and support his efforts for now, he is not trying to set us up to fail, he has the best record of any manager in the league, but that was with his mix of players, blame the players for their part in the poor performances too and the goals we concede. Warnock deserves some criticism but it needs to be for his failures, not those of others. You can rejoice his departure come May which isn’t long for you to wait. 

I presume you're forgetting that even Warnock says this is the best squad he's ever worked with? Or is this another thing we have to forget because he's just trying to big up his players or whatever.

You mentioned in that post too about how Howson isn't a holding midfielder but Warnock thinks he is so that's all that matters. It doesn't matter a jot whether Warnock wanted to keep Morsy in that regard either. We had him for a full year and he never played him in that holding role apart from I think Blackpool in the cup this season? All last season, Howson sat behind Morsy in midfield when they were played together. So if he's not a holding midfielder then surely the manager is getting it wrong. Hardly a case for him 'making do' when he had the parts but didn't use them in the right way.

He's not setting us up to fail, nobody does that. But he has already failed once and I don't see anything in this year's performances to make me think he'll do any better this season. Still, so long as he's not taking us down (seems unlikely) and Scott doesn't think he's having a negative effect on his plans then he can do whatever. Take us up or not, it's time to move on after this year onto something where everyone is on the same page.

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On 9/19/2021 at 1:42 PM, ManBearPig said:

Not backing Karanka in January was criminal in retrospect. Gibson wanted Karanka to walk or at least have the fans turn against him. I’m not saying that we would have definitely stayed up, but having Agnew in charge was the white flag to where we are now in my opinion.

 

 

Quite frankly, that statement is ridiculous. Why after nearly 10 years of trying to get back to the Prem, would Gibson want to try to show Karanka in a bad light just to sack him, when you know fine well if Gibson wanted to sack Karanka, he would've done so. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Also this whole 'Karanka wasn't backed' is pure myth. The same thing happens at every club, particularly in the January transfer window. The club have a No. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 targets for most positions but especially where we need to strengthen. Karanka being the inflexible manager he is, demanded his first choice targets and threw his toys out the pram by publicly outing the backroom staff, when he didn't get them. 

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1 hour ago, Humpty said:

Quite frankly, that statement is ridiculous. Why after nearly 10 years of trying to get back to the Prem, would Gibson want to try to show Karanka in a bad light just to sack him, when you know fine well if Gibson wanted to sack Karanka, he would've done so. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Also this whole 'Karanka wasn't backed' is pure myth. The same thing happens at every club, particularly in the January transfer window. The club have a No. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 targets for most positions but especially where we need to strengthen. Karanka being the inflexible manager he is, demanded his first choice targets and threw his toys out the pram by publicly outing the backroom staff, when he didn't get them. 

If you think the manager fighting for a relegation scrap was sufficiently backed with Bamford, Gestede and Guiediora then we will have to agree to disagree as I would say that we were significantly no better off with those additions in the slightest. 
 

Maybe I’m just putting two and two together, but didn’t Gibson not like the Spanish clique in the dressing room? But then couldn’t afford to sack Karanka due to his contract? I’d say that Gibson would have been fairly confident that Karanka would tie his own rope, so to speak, by being frustrated and then push him into leaving by Karanka’ down choice (and no pay off). 
 

You’ve also said that Karanka was inflexible but surely the fact he turned us from relegation form to promotion getters in three seasons showed that his method at least had some basis to them. For a manager fighting for their lives because it was tough, it’s no surprise he threw his toys out of the pram. 
 

I think that’s where we differ because I think Gibson wanted that exact reaction, knew he was going to get it so that he didn’t look like the bad guy when getting rid of AK. 

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Karanka had his methods and woe betide anyone that got in the way of them. His methods certainly had merits, we won promotion after all but they also added to his inability to man manage well and ultimately led to his downfall. He was given more 'wiggle room' and freedom here than he would get anywhere else. As his following appointments have shown his inflexibility coupled with the lack of complete control, have highlighted his failings.

With regards to his lack of backing. We spent circa £11 million in the January transfer window. That's a decent backing couple with what was spent in the previous summer; especially for a club of our size in that time period. They may not have been his first choice signings, but clubs like ours very rarely get their first choices. It something he should have accepted and understood rather than mouthing off and disrupting camp.

If Gibson wanted Karanka gone, he would've just sacked him. It's that simple. He would go around the houses trying to spin a position where he was 'forced' to sack him. Karanka shouldve gone after the Charlton debacle.

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14 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Karanka had his methods and woe betide anyone that got in the way of them. His methods certainly had merits, we won promotion after all but they also added to his inability to man manage well and ultimately led to his downfall. He was given more 'wiggle room' and freedom here than he would get anywhere else. As his following appointments have shown his inflexibility coupled with the lack of complete control, have highlighted his failings.

With regards to his lack of backing. We spent circa £11 million in the January transfer window. That's a decent backing couple with what was spent in the previous summer; especially for a club of our size in that time period. They may not have been his first choice signings, but clubs like ours very rarely get their first choices. It something he should have accepted and understood rather than mouthing off and disrupting camp.

If Gibson wanted Karanka gone, he would've just sacked him. It's that simple. He would go around the houses trying to spin a position where he was 'forced' to sack him. Karanka shouldve gone after the Charlton debacle.

I dunno - £11 million doesn't get you very far in the PL. Unless you are exceptionally good at wheeling and dealing. We spent more than that on a single player during the McLaren era.

Granted Gibson probably learned a bit of a lesson in financial sustainability, but I don't think it would have been outrageous to spend double that. Some clubs get promoted with a squad that is pretty well equipped to survive in the PL. I wouldn't say our was one of them. I think Karanka really needed more backing than he got. Our performances that season would certainly suggest so.

 

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1 minute ago, AnglianRed said:

I dunno - £11 million doesn't get you very far in the PL. Unless you are exceptionally good at wheeling and dealing. We spent more than that on a single player during the McLaren era.

Granted Gibson probably learned a bit of a lesson in financial sustainability, but I don't think it would have been outrageous to spend double that. Some clubs get promoted with a squad that is pretty well equipped to survive in the PL. I wouldn't say our was one of them. I think Karanka really needed more backing than he got. Our performances that season would certainly suggest so.

I thought he seemed pretty happy with the squad we had going into the season, to be honest. Don't think many clubs coming up could have signed Victor Valdes and Negredo who were both stupidly better than what we had. The only position I think we really wanted a better player than what we got was right-back, we were after Thomas Meunier and Aissa Mandi for that but those fell apart and we seemingly took Barragan on in order to sweeten the deal for Negredo with Valencia.

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I don’t necessarily disagree that we could’ve spent more. Don’t forget the money we’d already invested in the summer though, that wasn’t unsubstantial. There seems to be a narrative in some elements of our support that Karanka was done the dirty on and that January window is highlighted to support that narrative. I think it’s a weak angle that ignores Karanka’s failings especially at the top level. 

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Karanka had every opportunity here to succeed and was well backed in the summer, but he lost his way and got scared in the Prem leading to a gameplay where 0-0 was seen as a win. Staying up with that mentality is incredibly difficult. January was a weird one where he was a bit unrealistic in his targets with Jese and Bojan and didn't seem to want to look at alternatives besides an unfit and relatively untested Bamford at top level. I don't even think Bojan and Jese would have made any difference anyway. Karankas downfall was more or less his own undoing as he completely panicked in the Prem showing his inexperience. If he had been a bit more pragmatic and less confrontational I think he could have continued and stayed on even upon relegation, like Farke at Norwich. But in the end it wasn't to be and I very much doubt that Gibson was actively trying to get Karanka to resign by making his job difficult. The Gestede and Guediora signings were down to our attrocious recruitment team when it was clear we weren't getting Jese and Bojan.

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ive suported,followed and loved   Boro since 1968/69 and imo Karanka is one of thebest managers weve had in that time.  id place him alongside Charlton,Rioch,Robson and McLaren as the 5 that an be remembered as having success here, with a side mention for Neal and Lawrence that got a tune out of a broken instrument too. similar to Mogga ,Karanka ultimately was the architect of his own downfall through , stubborness and unwillingness to stray from his own beliefs. tbf he got lucky as far as fan acceptance is concerned as the majority actually wanted him here in the first place and his ppointment was generally recieved with optimism and hope (well doneGibbo ). personally i think that we were at our best the season we lost to norwich in the play off final and had we won that game we may well be still a premier team. the following season ,when he did lead us up , was a poorer managment display and we limped over the line in all honesty. the obvious start of his downfall was the charlton meltdown, then our form dipped on the pitch and little niggles began to surface off it ,the majority citing AK as a protaganist or at least with some involvement , i believed then that the SG-AK love affair was dissipating but the straw that broke the camels back imho was the signing of Valdes, 1) because i wasnt totally buying into his trophy cabinet making him a superstar and far more pertinent at the time i thought it was a disrespectful and poor way to reward Dimi . btw if i wasnt sold on Valdes lets not even go there on the spud we signed as his back up and who btw we had to pitch between the sticks far too many times. negredo was a stellar signing, guediora will have me shaking my head to my dying day and bamford was a token gesture for the worried fanbase. gestede  ....enough said.

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