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The open expansive football last season lasted approximately 135 minutes under Woodgate. It was abandoned at half time against Brentford to be replaced by what I'm not entirely quite sure, unfortunately neither were the players.

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Can you show me the quote by these ‘some one here’ saying they expect us to play like city or Barca please I’m interested to read it! In all honesty I’m tired of these arguments, I’m tired of see

Sorry for the short but sweet MDT but am still working    So the mighty Boro fresh from the first victory  of the season they take on the in form team with 4 wins out of 4 and only conceded

The club finished 4th, 2nd, 5th and 7th before last season in this division. Then we put a rookie in charge and we nearly get relegated, experienced manager in charge and we turn it around and win 50%

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1 minute ago, Redcar Rioja said:

Apples with apples,

I don't remember us starting with two relegated Premiership sides and the unbeaten top of the table side in the first 5 games last season.

I don't care who we started with then or now.  You play each team twice over a season, and those are the games we've played so far.  I'm just judging our performances in the games I've seen, it's as simple as that.  You've obviously convinced yourself that our performances will improve by virtue of us playing weaker sides, otherwise I don't really get what point you're trying to make?  I'm saying our performances will be the same regardless of who we are playing, the only thing that might differ is us being able to win games against bad sides as we did against Barnsley. That isn't enough for me and frankly I don't think it should be enough for anyone else but if it is then so be it.  Like I said in an earlier post, you seem to be one of the people who have set a really low bar for us for whatever reason.

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I don't care who we started with then or now.  You play each team twice over a season, and those are the games we've played so far.  I'm just judging our performances in the games I've seen, it's as simple as that.  You've obviously convinced yourself that our performances will improve by virtue of us playing weaker sides, otherwise I don't really get what point you're trying to make?  I'm saying our performances will be the same regardless of who we are playing, the only thing that might differ is us being able to win games against bad sides as we did against Barnsley. That isn't enough for me and frankly I don't think it should be enough for anyone else but if it is then so be it.  Like I said in an earlier post, you seem to be one of the people who have set a really low bar for us for whatever reason.

Last season set the bar seriously low as a relegation candidate. Being back to a defensively solid, ineffective attacking team is a huge step up from that.

Mind you; it's right back to where we started like, but it's a clear step up from last seasons garbage. We would have lost that game today under JW.

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2 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

The open expansive football last season lasted approximately 135 minutes under Woodgate. It was abandoned at half time against Brentford to be replaced by what I'm not entirely quite sure, unfortunately neither were the players.

Exactly.  Nobody can seriously say that under Woodgate we were playing attacking football and that's why we were struggling and he lost his job.  I have no idea what we were doing a lot of the time but it wasn't playing attacking football.

See, in the past when we've discussed this on here, it always ends up coming back to things like 'would you rather win 1-0 than lose 3-2', or 'I don't mind how we play as long as we win'.  I actually do mind how we play, but we also aren't winning games at this moment in time anyway.  We're not losing either, which is definitely handy, but that alone isn't enough, certainly not for me.  I don't get how people can watch today's game and then come away from it feeling enthused about the current situation or the future.  I thought it was a poor scrappy game, which is what all of our games seem to turn into.  I've seen solid but dull Boro teams recently, I wasn't any happier then with them either.

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I don’t get the obsession with attacking expansive football. It works for so few teams that it is ridiculous to want all teams to play it. Defend your goal. Don’t concede and you will win more than you lose. Simples

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4 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I don't care who we started with then or now.  You play each team twice over a season, and those are the games we've played so far.  I'm just judging our performances in the games I've seen, it's as simple as that.  You've obviously convinced yourself that our performances will improve by virtue of us playing weaker sides, otherwise I don't really get what point you're trying to make?  I'm saying our performances will be the same regardless of who we are playing, the only thing that might differ is us being able to win games against bad sides as we did against Barnsley. That isn't enough for me and frankly I don't think it should be enough for anyone else but if it is then so be it.  Like I said in an earlier post, you seem to be one of the people who have set a really low bar for us for whatever reason.

I think its more a realistic bar considering that there are around ten teams at least who have far bigger spending power than us either by parachute payments, manipulating FFP or through simply being run better for a number of years. I don't think we are as bad as many seem to be fearing but nor do I think we should be anything more than hoping to sneak into the play offs at best.

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1 minute ago, Blanco said:

I don’t get the obsession with attacking expansive football. It works for so few teams that it is ridiculous to want all teams to play it. Defend your goal. Don’t concede and you will win more than you lose. Simples

Liverpool 7-2 comes to mind

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13 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

You didn't watch us if you believe that what you were seeing was an attempt at expansive football until the lockdown because it simply didn't happen.  I don't know what Woodgate's thoughts on the table have to do with anything?  I think his thoughts on what our approach was is relevant to what our approach was though, at least a little bit wouldn't you say?  Not to mention actually watching the games and seeing a team that clearly was making no attempt at all to play attacking football.

I didnt see it at all. The fact Woodgate stated he was wanting to play that way and failing with the players he had was no surprise to me. His thoughts on our approach are pretty irrelevant as he lacked the players and capabilities to deliver it. I remember Mowbray saying we needed to find a way to get results but not Woodgate.  If you want to use Woodgate as a source for your argument I will point out that he is hardly a reliable source, unless you want to dig up the quote.

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Whoa what a day in lock down. Just five games in and we pick up a point against the top inform team, restrict them to one shot and 3 points from the playoffs and I can’t remember reading so much criticism on the forum. 
Well that’s me done for the day so I’m off to bed. 

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3 minutes ago, Brunners said:

Last season set the bar seriously low as a relegation candidate. Being back to a defensively solid, ineffective attacking team is a huge step up from that.

Mind you; it's right back to where we started like, but it's a clear step up from last seasons garbage. We would have lost that game today under JW.

We beat Reading at home last season 1-0.  Their team that day wasn't massively different to today's game if you look at it.  Our team was no better than today's - Randolph, Dijksteel, Fry, Shotton, Bola, McNair, Clayton, Wing, Johnson, Assombalonga, Fletcher.  So why would we have lost that game under Woodgate?  Saying that might make you feel better about today but it's not actually based on anything at all, mate, sorry but it isn't.  We also beat Reading away from home under Warnock as well at the end of last season as it happens.  Even saying all of that, why would anyone compare Woodgate to Warnock in terms of what to expect from them?  We should expect more from Warnock quite clearly.

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Exactly.  Nobody can seriously say that under Woodgate we were playing attacking football and that's why we were struggling and he lost his job.  I have no idea what we were doing a lot of the time but it wasn't playing attacking football.

See, in the past when we've discussed this on here, it always ends up coming back to things like 'would you rather win 1-0 than lose 3-2', or 'I don't mind how we play as long as we win'.  I actually do mind how we play, but we also aren't winning games at this moment in time anyway.  We're not losing either, which is definitely handy, but that alone isn't enough, certainly not for me.  I don't get how people can watch today's game and then come away from it feeling enthused about the current situation or the future.  I thought it was a poor scrappy game, which is what all of our games seem to turn into.  I've seen solid but dull Boro teams recently, I wasn't any happier then with them either.

I don't disagree with most of that but to build you need solid foundations and to me anyway there is some positive evidence that we are now becoming hard to beat.

Karanka had a similar mindset as did Warnock when he saved second bottom Cardiff (he joined them about this time in October) eventually finishing twelfth with them that season then got them promoted the following season. If we finish twelfth or higher this season then thats realistic by comparison then we can expect to push on next season. To expect anything more than that is unreasonable and will inevitably lead to unfulfilled expectations.

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8 minutes ago, Blanco said:

I don’t get the obsession with attacking expansive football. It works for so few teams that it is ridiculous to want all teams to play it. Defend your goal. Don’t concede and you will win more than you lose. Simples

Except that it isn't that simple and the more attacking sides in the Championship last season also had the better defensive records.  We had a solid enough defensive record but were in trouble so clearly it's more than that.

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9 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

I think its more a realistic bar considering that there are around ten teams at least who have far bigger spending power than us either by parachute payments, manipulating FFP or through simply being run better for a number of years. I don't think we are as bad as many seem to be fearing but nor do I think we should be anything more than hoping to sneak into the play offs at best.

Well you would think it was a more realistic bar, as it's based on your own opinion 🙂

 

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4 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

I don't disagree with most of that but to build you need solid foundations and to me anyway there is some positive evidence that we are now becoming hard to beat.

Karanka had a similar mindset as did Warnock when he saved second bottom Cardiff (he joined them about this time in October) eventually finishing twelfth with them that season then got them promoted the following season. If we finish twelfth or higher this season then thats realistic by comparison then we can expect to push on next season. To expect anything more than that is unreasonable and will inevitably lead to unfulfilled expectations.

We've had solid foundations for about 5 years mate.  The foundations last season weren't exactly porous, we simply had a terrible attacking element to our game, and we seem to have the same thing this season.  That doesn't give me cause for optimism I'm afraid because I've seen this before.  Again, as others have mentioned, Warnock isn't here to finish 12th, not at this stage of his career.  So I can only assume that his own expectations are as 'unreasonable' as mine.

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