To Boo or not

[Uwe 3,545]

I have a real issue with white privilege and even more so of white male privilege. I’m still waiting for mine to kick in. 
It certainly didn’t kick in when my mother *** me and my brother off at  4 & 2 years old to live with a violent, alcoholic grandmother. (Incidentally keeping her two daughters)  

I didn’t feel very privileged when I woke up in hospital on my 8th birthday for having the cheek to ask for a birthday cake

 At 15 I expressed my interest in going to college my nana didn’t care what I did because at 16 I was out the house and not her problem. 
 

So maybe it kicked in when I took responsibility for my life. Stopped doing drugs (a period of my life that ability disgusts me)  moved away from the north east and joined the military. 
 

What I’m trying to say is everyone has issues, problems and hurdles and my life isn’t a sob story as I know lots of people even some of this forum that have had much harder and traumatic times than I have. 
But making a generation of victims certainly isn’t the way to deal with it. That’s what I believe we are doing. Because for every person that just wants an opportunity to prove themselves there’s another that world much rather take the easy option. 
 

But what do I know as a white cis male 🤷‍♂️

[Duvel 2,446]

18 minutes ago, Uwe said:

I have a real issue with white privilege and even more so of white male privilege. I’m still waiting for mine to kick in. 
It certainly didn’t kick in when my mother *** me and my brother off at  4 & 2 years old to live with a violent, alcoholic grandmother. (Incidentally keeping her two daughters)  

I didn’t feel very privileged when I woke up in hospital on my 8th birthday for having the cheek to ask for a birthday cake

 At 15 I expressed my interest in going to college my nana didn’t care what I did because at 16 I was out the house and not her problem. 
 

So maybe it kicked in when I took responsibility for my life. Stopped doing drugs (a period of my life that ability disgusts me)  moved away from the north east and joined the military. 
 

What I’m trying to say is everyone has issues, problems and hurdles and my life isn’t a sob story as I know lots of people even some of this forum that have had much harder and traumatic times than I have. 
But making a generation of victims certainly isn’t the way to deal with it. That’s what I believe we are doing. Because for every person that just wants an opportunity to prove themselves there’s another that world much rather take the easy option. 
 

But what do I know as a white cis male 🤷‍♂️

Bloody hell, you have overcome the odds. Respect. I wouldn't feel guilty about doing drugs either, it sounds only natural after what you've experienced. 

I think I agree and disagree with you to an extent, for every child who has an experience like yours not every one of them has the capacity to overcome those odds. Its a bit like the American dream thing that the Americans talk about, 'if so and so can make it out of the ghetto to Hollywood then anyone can make it'. Its not always that easy, we can't have a million Hollywood A listers and people do need help. 

I agree with you about personal responsibility as well though and seeing ourselves as victims, humans have an unbelievable capacity to overcome difficult challenges. I think there's a balance between us needing support and working our *** off. I'm not saying that Black people don't work as hard obviously but I think its an easy option for all of us though sometimes to blame someone else when we could work harder. 

 

[rutters 53]

19 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

Here is what I said..."What I have observed in my experience (1) is the people that tend to vehemently (2) use the "All Lives Matter" are the same ones (3) that are normally pretty outspoken...". 

I have boldened some words so that you can interpret the sentence correctly. 

1. That bit is very important as earlier you said something about my post being prejudice. But the definition of prejudice is "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience". Very clearly I pointed out this was my observation on my experiences in my original post.

2. The is the key word here. "The people" that I have experienced), not all people, as you are trying to make out. If I wanted to make a general statement I would have said all people no?

3. "The same people", notice I haven't broadened that to include anyone else outside other than who my original comment was aimed at. Again if I wanted to make a sweeping statement I would have used a different vocabulary.

By outspoken on immigration, I'm meaning the people I have experienced and what they have said. They have said that all lives matter, yet have a blatant disregard (and in some cases overtly celebrating) the lives being lost in the Channel crossings. So quite clearly to them all lives do not matter. I'm not trying to silence anyone, but what I have seen is a complete hypocrisy of the statement all lives matter.

1. You pre-judged people you don't know based on your personal experience of others you consider similar...that's what prejudice is.

2.  No-one has ever claimed you said 'all'. 'Lumping together' isn't superlative.

3. "The same people" is just lumping 'the same people' together again.

Both sides are outspoken on the matter. I don't know anyone who celebrated lives being lost in the channel. Perhaps you could offer an example?

...and finally 'voiding people's statements' looks pretty much like 'silencing' to me.

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

2 minutes ago, rutters said:

1. You pre-judged people you don't know based on your personal experience of others you consider similar...that's what prejudice is.

2.  No-one has ever claimed you said 'all'. 'Lumping together' isn't superlative.

3. "The same people" is just lumping 'the same people' together again.

Both sides are outspoken on the matter. I don't know anyone who celebrated lives being lost in the channel. Perhaps you could offer an example?

...and finally 'voiding people's statements' looks pretty much like 'silencing' to me.

1. I judged people I do know on the things they have said. I have never tried to judged people I don't know. Hence the reason I stated "What I have observed in my experience". That's been pretty clear from the start.

2. You claimed I lumped everyone together. You assumed that I was lumping everyone together in your first reply to me. You assumed wrongly I was talking about a wider populace. 

3. Yes, there is,  in my experience a distinct correlation between the people that said one statement and have said other statements.

You don't know anyone that has celebrated in your experiences. But we were and have never been talking about your experiences, as you quite clearly took issue to my experiences and called me out on it.

I'm not voiding anyones statements, I'm saying that saying one statement that is then a complete juxtaposition of another statement is they, themselves voiding their own statements. 

 

[Changing Times 12,347]

2 hours ago, Blanco said:

Oh you have to draw the line there. That’s your role 😃

Thank God for that!  I was worried it might be a bit unethical to not employ any munters 😟

[rutters 53]

I had a very interesting conv with John Amaechi OBE on twitter last week re. white male privilege.

I asked him if he'd like to knock on the door of a house on a sink estate in a sink town in N.E. England and try to explain his privileges to the white man who answered. Or if he knew any black women in London who'd like to trade places with him.

In the end we agreed it was pointless. It's a zero-sum-game. Making it into a competition of who is the most oppressed ultimately helps no-one...apart from those looking to divide the poor and powerless to make them easier to rule.

[rutters 53]

8 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

1. I judged people I do know on the things they have said. I have never tried to judged people I don't know. Hence the reason I stated "What I have observed in my experience". That's been pretty clear from the start.

2. You claimed I lumped everyone together. You assumed that I was lumping everyone together in your first reply to me. You assumed wrongly I was talking about a wider populace. 

3. Yes, there is,  in my experience a distinct correlation between the people that said one statement and have said other statements.

You don't know anyone that has celebrated in your experiences. But we were and have never been talking about your experiences, as you quite clearly took issue to my experiences and called me out on it.

I'm not voiding anyones statements, I'm saying that saying one statement that is then a complete juxtaposition of another statement is they, themselves voiding their own statements. 

 

Whilst your still judging people you don't know I'm sure everyone is as bored with the semantics as much as I am. 

So for brevity could you just give us an example of someone 'overtly celebrating' the loss of life in the channel which would void their statements by juxtaposition?

[London Wall 36]

Great debate

Just in from work and shopping, I’ll sign off with this and bring it back to the original post with a bit of a back story, this is not justification just how things unfolded for us..

Rumblings started about taking the knee soon after the new season got under way, by that I mean debate amongst the support. Come the game closest to 11th November Millwall do their standard remembrance day, this would generally involve some military and the last post before the game. Between the club and the ref they managed to get it wrong, the support had asked for the knee to be not taken and the whole remembrance stuff to be observed, the bugle played and then straight into the knee. The following day support emailed the CEO stating their unhappiness, he actually phoned a number of them to gauge the feeling, and then sat on his hands.

14 hrs before KO against Derby the players issued a statement, ‘we will take the knee’.  The reaction was not good, Jiggens ST holder and Sun reporter ran an article, the cat was out of the bag, for the MSM there was an immediate interest. Talk-Sport decided to commentate on the game…..the booing ensued.  

Tuesday morning, the QPR game was that evening, the CEO and the boss of KIO had a meeting with the support representatives, these were desperate times for the club, how to repair the damage between supporters and the players, almost unprecedented in football. The MSM were circling and went into overdrive, staff at the club were getting emails and messages (they had gone onto LinkedIn and other social media to get details), some threatening, all asking about racism. Millwall printed a letter and handed it out to all support as they arrived, the CEO actually joined this, the last sentence   "one of the most important days in the club's history". "The eyes of the world are on this football club tonight - your club - and they want us to fail. "Together as one, we will not let that happen."  

There is loads more, don’t want to bore you.

Hope we win tomorrow, although that old fox Warnock will find a way………

Cheers All      

[Old Codger 3,064]

From everything I have read on this forum, it seems to me, that just about everybody here agrees that they disagree with intolerance and discrimination, but some feel wary about associating themselves with perceived extremists. This is as it should be as blindly following leads you into trouble more often than doing what you feel is "the right thing". That will always be different. I am the son of a Normandy veteran, my grandfather was in the trenches in WW1, and various members of the family are in cemeteries in France, Belgium, the Middle East and Malaya, and at the bottom of the sea near Denmark,  but I choose not to wear a poppy. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate their actions, just that I feel there has to be a better way than blowing each other to bits. You should all continue to do what you think is right because in many cases, it is. If something goes wrong and it is your fault, then accept that and try to avoid making the same mistake. If it was somebody else's fault then think twice before trusting them again. Re-reading the last sentence does confuse me a little as for some reason I keep supporting Boro.       

[Changing Times 12,347]

47 minutes ago, Old Codger said:

and at the bottom of the sea near Denmark,

One of your relatives fought at The Battle of Jutland?

[Old Codger 3,064]

Yes..  He was a Ship's boy on the "Black Prince"..  rather a sad story as they seem to have become detached from the fleet due to fog during the action and by the time they realised the vessels they found as visibility improved were not actually British, they were sitting ducks and went down with all hands

[rutters 53]

Mr Warnock in the Gazette

“We’re all of the same opinion of what we’re trying to achieve, it’s just that our lads don’t think the knee is relevant and are not agreeable to the political side of that.”

 

Penny dropping?

 

[pikerman 1,121]

I have had the pleasure to coach youth football for over thirty years, getting to know kids of all colours, races and religions. Our overriding aim has been to treat everyone as equals with the only differential being talent and hard work. I fear that the import of this divisive BLM and woke led American race politics will set us back twenty years. I can see a situation arising whereby team selection will soon be by quota based according to skin colour, God help us. Would I boo players kneeling and doing black power salutes, bloody right I would, but I would also clap players linking arms in unity

[HoyteForLeftBack 194]

2 hours ago, Duvel said:

I agree with you about personal responsibility as well though and seeing ourselves as victims, humans have an unbelievable capacity to overcome difficult challenges. I think there's a balance between us needing support and working our *** off. I'm not saying that Black people don't work as hard obviously but I think its an easy option for all of us though sometimes to blame someone else when we could work harder. 

I put a lot of stock in the “personal responsibility” viewpoint. Probably from reading/watching a lot of Jordan Peterson.

And FWIW I think a lot of the single variate studies that get peddled to show things like gender or ethnicity based pay gaps are usually just lazy statistical analysis and are generally put out to show a pre-conceived point. You see it frequently with the nonsensical gender pay gap argument.

[Uwe 3,545]

3 minutes ago, HoyteForLeftBack said:

I put a lot of stock in the “personal responsibility” viewpoint. Probably from reading/watching a lot of Jordan Peterson.

And FWIW I think a lot of the single variate studies that get peddled to show things like gender or ethnicity based pay gaps are usually just lazy statistical analysis and are generally put out to show a pre-conceived point. You see it frequently with the nonsensical gender pay gap argument.

Love JP completely unflappable and an inspiringly intelligent man I urge everyone to watch his videos or listen to his podcast. His talk about Sweden being the most egalitarian society having the opposite effect on women choosing STEM careers/university courses is particularly interesting