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Dan's Summer Transfer Thread. Aka: " Post Mortem Time""


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Offer has been accepted bauser has had his critics but he has pulled masterstrokes on both of these.  Now over to you Leo!  Payero small issues look sorted should be an announcement tomorrow or f

Gibson doing a Gibson. Having another punt, pushing for Bolasie, this Argentinian and money available for a couple more. (Not a lot though) Spence going for £5m

Not been keeping up but Sporar should be sorted by Tuesday 

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1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

Well we've already signed Crooks so if we needed to sell to buy him that was a bit of a dumb thing to do. That's surely not a realistic assumption to make?

As for Ciaron Brown or Kean Bryan, again, they're not improving the first 11 as far as I understand it so why bother selling someone who is pretty emphatically one of our best players (including having the prestigious oneBoro Player of the Season 2020/21 award to his name) to fund moves for them? I'd rather keep McNair than bring in 1 or 2 players who aren't expected to start anywhere near as many games as McNair does.

Not to mention that Kean Bryan is out of contract so I don't really know why selling McNair is required to bring him in. I know all the money adds up but as it stands, we are making moves without seemingly intending on selling anyone barring maybe Akpom, Spence and Coulson.

I don't get the feeling we're in a bad position in terms of needing to sell to buy so unless that changes, keep your best players. We are only making the first team worse by selling McNair.

It's not a dumb thing to do if it's a Player that is wanted and delay would mean missing out (as we often have in the past), raising short term finance is commonplace in a business just as it is in people's private lives, so very far from "dumb". Buying something now knowing that you can recoup your costs by selling an asset in a few weeks is not unusual.

Crooks could also arguably be the replacement for McNair in Midfield. We are currently short of a CB and struggling on the left side of defence and signing two left sided defenders would cover not only McNair as a CB but also Bola who seems to be a doubt and Coulson who seemingly isn't trusted as a defender. One out and three in is making the squad stronger for a hectic schedule ahead. Players out of contract may come "free" to the uninitiated but because they are "free" their agent will be negotiating a signing on fee and better wages in lieu of that fee. 

Selling Akpom, Spence and Coulson may be on the cards, certainly I suspect with the first two but if nobody wants them or is prepared to pay anything for them then what? Do we sign nobody and hope that the kids can make the step up? Are we hoping that SG has found a wedge of unexpected cash down the back of one of his Sofa's? The Global Pandemic has hit Governments let alone businesses hard, Bulkhaul and MFC are no exception, their profits will not have been immune to the decline and that's before we throw in the effects of Brexit in general and its impact on haulage in particular.

Ideally we can keep him but considering Clubs outside of the Premiership were and still are in danger of going to the wall last season we can't spend something that we haven't got. It may not be McNair, it could be Tav or Fry but I suspect that we will need to raise as much as we can from somewhere especially with the South American links if they come off and that's before we take FFP into consideration.

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I assumed Crooks was signed with Saville money.

Been reported in media and those ITK on here that we got £1.5m for Sav

We spent £1.1m on Crooks.

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1 minute ago, Redcar Rioja said:

It's not a dumb thing to do if it's a Player that is wanted and delay would mean missing out (as we often have in the past), raising short term finance is commonplace in a business just as it is in people's private lives, so very far from "dumb". Buying something now knowing that you can recoup your costs by selling an asset in a few weeks is not unusual.

Crooks could also arguably be the replacement for McNair in Midfield. We are currently short of a CB and struggling on the left side of defence and signing two left sided defenders would cover not only McNair as a CB but also Bola who seems to be a doubt and Coulson who seemingly isn't trusted as a defender. One out and three in is making the squad stronger for a hectic schedule ahead. Players out of contract may come "free" to the uninitiated but because they are "free" their agent will be negotiating a signing on fee and better wages in lieu of that fee. 

Selling Akpom, Spence and Coulson may be on the cards, certainly I suspect with the first two but if nobody wants them or is prepared to pay anything for them then what? Do we sign nobody and hope that the kids can make the step up? Are we hoping that SG has found a wedge of unexpected cash down the back of one of his Sofa's? The Global Pandemic has hit Governments let alone businesses hard, Bulkhaul and MFC are no exception, their profits will not have been immune to the decline and that's before we throw in the effects of Brexit in general and its impact on haulage in particular.

Ideally we can keep him but considering Clubs outside of the Premiership were and still are in danger of going to the wall last season we can't spend something that we haven't got. It may not be McNair, it could be Tav or Fry but I suspect that we will need to raise as much as we can from somewhere especially with the South American links if they come off and that's before we take FFP into consideration.

No but you wouldn't spend money you didn't have if you didn't expect to get it, would you? Especially if it's going to put you in a troublesome position. I just don't see a direct correlation between us signing Crooks in particular over anybody else, including potential transfers. Add in the rest of the summer transfers as well because they all cost a sum of money to us in the short and long term that a sale would cover.

What you're suggesting is not really based on anything. The club hasn't suggested we need to sell this summer where we don't actually want to so I don't know why anyone, in that atmosphere, would suggest we should sell a first-team player to fund any moves unless they undoubtedly make us better. If that were different then sure but I don't think we buy all the players we're hoping to right now under the pretence that we can sell McNair for a significant sum in a few weeks time. Has there even been any realistic interest in him this summer? If not then that's not a good start for justifying overspending then recouping costs later is it?

All clubs have to work to a budget and I'm willing to bet Neil Warnock would rather keep Paddy McNair than have to sell him to spend somewhere else, especially if it comes to selling him just to improve squad depth. The first and most important thing for any team is to have a strong first 11, squad depth is secondary. The players you want to play 40+ games a season are your first priority.

Who have we been linked with or signed this summer who is undoubtedly a significant improvement on what we had last year? I guess you could argue Ikpeazu in the fact he is much more of the kind of striker Warnock wants but beyond that, is there anyone we've signed who indisputably makes our first team better? Crooks might be better than Saville, Lumley might be better than Bettinelli, Peltier is cover (particularly for an injured full-back) and I wouldn't say Ameobi is any better than Watmore or Tav. People say a lot about these South Americans but there are very few people on here who actually know if they're any good. Brown and Bryan, I don't know a great deal about these either but are they expected to start games ahead of anybody else? Are they better than any of our current players? If that answer is not an immediate yes, why sell McNair to fund them being here?

If we're struggling for money and we need to sell to fund moves, we'll definitely try to sell. But I don't see any indications that we need to, not when Gibson is finding money out of nowhere to fund moves for a couple of South Americans. Those in particular seem to be our intended big purchases this summer and I don't see how a business in this climate goes in to spend that sort of money if they need to sell to fund them and spend that money before they have any inclination that they'll make it back.

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6 minutes ago, TLF10 said:

I assumed Crooks was signed with Saville money.

Been reported in media and those ITK on here that we got £1.5m for Sav

We spent £1.1m on Crooks.

That's kind of what I would have thought too. Whatever we made or basically didn't have to spend any more on Saville could have gone into the Crooks deal. We've also lost a big chunk off our wage bill this summer with Britt and Fletch going, I reckon Saville was on more than Crooks has come in on too.

I just don't see any reason to think we're in sell-to-buy territory yet. Certainly not selling the best players we have to fund moves and surely we're not going in to spend a great deal of money right now without knowing for a fact that:

a) We can afford to OR;

b) We have something lined up to fund them

I can't see anything really to suggest the latter so for now, I can only really see that we don't need to sell to improve the squad.

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@SzilardNemethsCurtains

Not trying to sell anybody, just wondered what people thought, don't see him starting in a back 4, with added CB cover he may not get into the 3 either, CM is well stocked and we need funds for attacking players, hence the curiosity in what people thought

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12 minutes ago, estonpidge said:

@SzilardNemethsCurtains

Not trying to sell anybody, just wondered what people thought, don't see him starting in a back 4, with added CB cover he may not get into the 3 either, CM is well stocked and we need funds for attacking players, hence the curiosity in what people thought

Not necessarily you, I understand why you pose the question. He was the one player who played every game last season, I think he will be an important figure once again especially if we play with a back 3

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1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

No but you wouldn't spend money you didn't have if you didn't expect to get it, would you? Especially if it's going to put you in a troublesome position. I just don't see a direct correlation between us signing Crooks in particular over anybody else, including potential transfers. Add in the rest of the summer transfers as well because they all cost a sum of money to us in the short and long term that a sale would cover.

What you're suggesting is not really based on anything. The club hasn't suggested we need to sell this summer where we don't actually want to so I don't know why anyone, in that atmosphere, would suggest we should sell a first-team player to fund any moves unless they undoubtedly make us better. If that were different then sure but I don't think we buy all the players we're hoping to right now under the pretence that we can sell McNair for a significant sum in a few weeks time. Has there even been any realistic interest in him this summer? If not then that's not a good start for justifying overspending then recouping costs later is it?

All clubs have to work to a budget and I'm willing to bet Neil Warnock would rather keep Paddy McNair than have to sell him to spend somewhere else, especially if it comes to selling him just to improve squad depth. The first and most important thing for any team is to have a strong first 11, squad depth is secondary. The players you want to play 40+ games a season are your first priority.

Who have we been linked with or signed this summer who is undoubtedly a significant improvement on what we had last year? I guess you could argue Ikpeazu in the fact he is much more of the kind of striker Warnock wants but beyond that, is there anyone we've signed who indisputably makes our first team better? Crooks might be better than Saville, Lumley might be better than Bettinelli, Peltier is cover (particularly for an injured full-back) and I wouldn't say Ameobi is any better than Watmore or Tav. People say a lot about these South Americans but there are very few people on here who actually know if they're any good. Brown and Bryan, I don't know a great deal about these either but are they expected to start games ahead of anybody else? Are they better than any of our current players? If that answer is not an immediate yes, why sell McNair to fund them being here?

If we're struggling for money and we need to sell to fund moves, we'll definitely try to sell. But I don't see any indications that we need to, not when Gibson is finding money out of nowhere to fund moves for a couple of South Americans. Those in particular seem to be our intended big purchases this summer and I don't see how a business in this climate goes in to spend that sort of money if they need to sell to fund them and spend that money before they have any inclination that they'll make it back.

It's called speculation, all businesses do it, some do it rashly and some do it very wisely, knowing that they can cash in, acquiring one or more assets that you believe is of more use to you in the belief that you can unload another to cover it. I'm not saying that I want to sell McNair, Tav or Fry what I am saying is where is all this money coming from to find the ten players that we need this Summer. You can't seriously believe that Gibson will find money out of nowhere Ken Dodds style in this current climate?

Gibson may be willing to do a Villa and go for broke but we could equally likely end up like Derby and after 1986 I don't think he would put the Club in that type of jeopardy. If we need ten players then we may have to sell a few including Akpom to put some funds back in the pot. If nobody wants Akpom then we will need to sell another asset to balance the books. Selling what you want rid off is great but sometimes buyers aren't interested and they want something you would prefer to keep. Selling Akpom may not generate enough funds or Spence come to that.

Having Paddy and his adaptability is great but he can't play in or cover three positions all at the same time. I'm not claiming that the signings will be individually better than what we had (or have) but that the squad should be bigger and better balanced overall. If you seriously believe that a first 11 is the main criteria in todays game then it is futile trying to have the discussion. When injuries, fatigue, loss of form and suspensions hit then whatever our first 11 had achieved will be worthless when we start to plummet down the Championship unable to name a full bench or putting kids on it.

It's not an argument about whether or not we should sell one of our better players its a reality check for a few of us on here getting carried away about buying South Americans etc. Since we lost the Parachute payments and relieved the rest up a wall we have had to cut costs, so what has suddenly changed over the last twelve months that has improved finances? Have we forgotten the Pulis era and the Woodgate farce so soon? Getting Britt and Fletcher off the wage bill has helped but not enough to go on a spending spree when MFC have been hemorrhaging money for years.

It's great if we get all these targeted players but what I am saying is don't be surprised if there is a sting in the tail.

 

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33 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

It's called speculation, all businesses do it, some do it rashly and some do it very wisely, knowing that they can cash in, acquiring one or more assets that you believe is of more use to you in the belief that you can unload another to cover it. I'm not saying that I want to sell McNair, Tav or Fry what I am saying is where is all this money coming from to find the ten players that we need this Summer. You can't seriously believe that Gibson will find money out of nowhere Ken Dodds style in this current climate?

Gibson may be willing to do a Villa and go for broke but we could equally likely end up like Derby and after 1986 I don't think he would put the Club in that type of jeopardy. If we need ten players then we may have to sell a few including Akpom to put some funds back in the pot. If nobody wants Akpom then we will need to sell another asset to balance the books. Selling what you want rid off is great but sometimes buyers aren't interested and they want something you would prefer to keep. Selling Akpom may not generate enough funds or Spence come to that.

Having Paddy and his adaptability is great but he can't play in or cover three positions all at the same time. I'm not claiming that the signings will be individually better than what we had (or have) but that the squad should be bigger and better balanced overall. If you seriously believe that a first 11 is the main criteria in todays game then it is futile trying to have the discussion. When injuries, fatigue, loss of form and suspensions hit then whatever our first 11 had achieved will be worthless when we start to plummet down the Championship unable to name a full bench or putting kids on it.

It's not an argument about whether or not we should sell one of our better players its a reality check for a few of us on here getting carried away about buying South Americans etc. Since we lost the Parachute payments and relieved the rest up a wall we have had to cut costs, so what has suddenly changed over the last twelve months that has improved finances? Have we forgotten the Pulis era and the Woodgate farce so soon? Getting Britt and Fletcher off the wage bill has helped but not enough to go on a spending spree when MFC have been hemorrhaging money for years.

It's great if we get all these targeted players but what I am saying is don't be surprised if there is a sting in the tail.

 

I don't think anybody is being unrealistic as such, just reading the situation as it's presented to them. We haven't spent over the top already, we've spent barely £2m in transfer fees on 2 players so far as well as recouping what sounds like nearly that from selling one player. I'd be shocked if our wage bill wasn't down on last season even adding a couple of others. Adding Ciaron Brown and Kean Bryan on top of what we've already done surely won't break the bank enough to have to sell a huge asset, though I would be a little shocked if we were after both, I reckon it's only one of the two who we'll end up with by design.

As for whatever we spend on Payero and whoever else, well it wouldn't be the first time Gibson has found a few extra quid will it? Where did the £5.5m for Downing come from? The £10m for Rhodes or whatever it was? In mildly better times yes but even then, it doesn't look like we're going to be spending anywhere near that right now. We don't know for sure but I'd be very shocked if the Payero deal wasn't heavily incentivised by the collective performance of him and the club. Even the Ikpeazu deal apparently has those kind of incentives in it. The kind that ultimately don't bear fruit for the selling club unless we do well.

What I would say is if it doesn't work this season and we don't go up then yes, I would expect someone like McNair or Tav to go. I think we'll probably see they want to leave as much as we may need to sell them. But this summer because we're spending a little? I just don't see where that comes from. There doesn't seem to be any kind of speculation linking anyone but those fringe players away from the club and if there was any sense of necessity in selling, we'd surely have heard it by now. We did when we had to sell Bamford and Gibson, we had a full summer of speculation going around about Traore before Wolves finally took him. Who has even been linked with our bigger players this summer other than the usual 'Burnley after Fry' tripe?

Is it realistic to expect us to sell any player who isn't getting linked with a move away? That's not just a question to pose to yourself but to the club too. If we need to sell, surely we'd not be waiting until all of our own deals are over the line before starting to put something out there. That would be a risk.

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1 hour ago, estonpidge said:

@SzilardNemethsCurtains

Not trying to sell anybody, just wondered what people thought, don't see him starting in a back 4, with added CB cover he may not get into the 3 either, CM is well stocked and we need funds for attacking players, hence the curiosity in what people thought

Do think you have a point. In a back 4 there's no chance he's starting before Hall or Fry*.

Then in midfield we saw Warnock prefer Howson, Saville and Morsy a lot last season, we've effectively replaced Saville with Crooks. So a presumption on my part, but I'm thinking Warnock will stick with Morsy, Howson and Crooks as a midfield 3. To be totally honest the times McNair has played midfield, in my opinion, he's not been a standout performer. 

That said if we are going to be playing a 3 at the back McNair is absolutely vital for us. His ability on the ball and bringing it out of defence is crucial if we are to play a 3.

* If they are both fit.

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2 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

Do think you have a point. In a back 4 there's no chance he's starting before Hall or Fry*.

Then in midfield we saw Warnock prefer Howson, Saville and Morsy a lot last season, we've effectively replaced Saville with Crooks. So a presumption on my part, but I'm thinking Warnock will stick with Morsy, Howson and Crooks as a midfield 3. To be totally honest the times McNair has played midfield, in my opinion, he's not been a standout performer. 

That said if we are going to be playing a 3 at the back McNair is absolutely vital for us. His ability on the ball and bringing it out of defence is crucial if we are to play a 3.

* If they are both fit.

not after Payero is in and settled, I don't think

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  • Downsouth changed the title to Dan's Summer Transfer Thread. Aka: " Post Mortem Time""
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