thomas 501 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 On 4/11/2021 at 2:34 PM, AnglianRed said: If this highlights reel is anything to go by, you're not far wrong... He was also pretty handy for St Gallen as well a few seasons back... His timing, positioning and general reading of the game are light years ahead of Bettinelli's. Then factor in his shot stopping and distribution... True he does have a tendency to parry a lot of shots, which can still get defences in trouble. But I'd still take him in a heartbeat over MB. What on Earth was Warnock smoking when he decided to ditch this guy for Bettinelli? Calm, reassured and a good shot stopper. That be the type of keeper like Dimi to give the defence confidence again I am convinced Betenelli is the reason the defence has gone to pot as nobody has confidence in him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 hours ago, thomas said: Calm, reassured and a good shot stopper. That be the type of keeper like Dimi to give the defence confidence again I am convinced Betenelli is the reason the defence has gone to pot as nobody has confidence in him. That has to be at least part of the problem, but communication is a 2-way thing and the Barnsley game had a classic example of the lack of it, between keeper & defence. Namely when Hall let Dike past him and Bettinelli ended up doing that high kick to try and clear the ball, caught Dike and was lucky not to be booked or even sent off. Which goes back to my earlier question of what the coaching staff actually do to earn their pay. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RiseAgainst 3,792 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 3 hours ago, AnglianRed said: That has to be at least part of the problem, but communication is a 2-way thing and the Barnsley game had a classic example of the lack of it, between keeper & defence. Namely when Hall let Dike past him and Bettinelli ended up doing that high kick to try and clear the ball, caught Dike and was lucky not to be booked or even sent off. Which goes back to my earlier question of what the coaching staff actually do to earn their pay. Turn up on time. Simple as. I'm not seeing any evidence they're improving any of our players at the moment. In many respects, we've regressed. Abysmal as a Pulis team was to watch, the defence was usually obdurate. Now, we're toothless up front, ineffectual in midfield, shaky in defence and incompetent in goal. I honestly can't work out if Warnock keeping us up last season was a fluke, or if something's badly rotten behind the scenes this season. He's certainly made glaring mistakes, like giving Britt the captain's armband when the man couldn't organise the crew on the Marie Celeste. And keeping Bettinelli in goal has - probably in isolation - cost us our slim chance of the play-offs. But the problems go deeper than a manager out of time. The entire coaching staff appear to be complicit in the malaise, and the players couldn't give a monkeys at the moment. If any of them care, they're doing well to hide it. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,338 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 22 hours ago, diggerlad07 said: @Changing Times Did you tune in tonight's show? I managed to have a listen of it. I hope you're not that fella who said that 12th would be an outstanding achievement this season. Must be off his bloody head 🤦♂️ Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,933 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Changing Times said: I managed to have a listen of it. I hope you're not that fella who said that 12th would be an outstanding achievement this season. Must be off his bloody head 🤦♂️ You'll have lots of people going trying to spin this as a good season and progress from last year so may as well get used to it. Reality is that we're currently 14 points off the play off spots whereas last season we finished 17 points off them. With the way we've been playing, there's every chance that we could end up further behind this season than we were last. Our points tally is up, but not by an awful lot and the football is as bad and inconsistent as ever. Warnock has had an almost negligible effect on us since keeping us up and is probably being paid handsomely for it while getting the added bonus of being allowed to bore yet another fan base to tears. Good luck to everyone who thinks we've progressed, I wish that I could see it that way, it would make life as a Boro fan much easier. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GrimsbyBoro 1,968 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: Good luck to everyone who thinks we've progressed, I wish that I could see it that way, it would make life as a Boro fan much easier. We have clearly progressed this season. By the end of this season we will have scored more goals, won more matches and accumulated more points that last season. There has been no hint of a relegation battle and until recently we had a chance of promotion via the play offs. If that’s not progress from a relegation battle then I don’t know what is progress. I think you could fairly argue that it hasn’t been enough progress, that this squad should be doing better or that the football is far from entertaining but I really struggle to see how there has been no progress. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,933 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, GrimsbyBoro said: We have clearly progressed this season. By the end of this season we will have scored more goals, won more matches and accumulated more points that last season. There has been no hint of a relegation battle and until recently we had a chance of promotion via the play offs. If that’s not progress from a relegation battle then I don’t know what is progress. I think you could fairly argue that it hasn’t been enough progress, that this squad should be doing better or that the football is far from entertaining but I really struggle to see how there has been no progress. Fair enough. Maybe progress is the wrong word to use because when you compare this season with last season directly there have been improvements in certain metrics. However, we've finished below 12th at this level just twice since 1990 and last season was one of those seasons. And I think everyone will agree that the squad we had was much better than that and that we should never have been in that position to begin with. From the point of view of our goals - to get promoted - were still almost as many points behind where we need to be as we were in one of our 2 worst seasons in 30 years. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
wilsoncgp 9,276 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, GrimsbyBoro said: We have clearly progressed this season. By the end of this season we will have scored more goals, won more matches and accumulated more points that last season. There has been no hint of a relegation battle and until recently we had a chance of promotion via the play offs. If that’s not progress from a relegation battle then I don’t know what is progress. I think you could fairly argue that it hasn’t been enough progress, that this squad should be doing better or that the football is far from entertaining but I really struggle to see how there has been no progress. Problem is, whilst finishing higher than last season represents progress from that, in the long-term, it still represents a downward trend since relegation. Woodgate didn't destroy our squad, he didn't destroy our club, he was a poor inexperienced coach who took a team who had been finishing in the top third of the division and nearly took it down. Warnock came in last year and he relatively comfortably managed to get us avoiding relegation in the end because he's a competent, experienced manager. With quite a similar squad this year, we're still on a downward trend from where Pulis left us unless we break back into the play-off pack, which surely isn't gonna happen now, the manager has downed tools on that front. As much as I don't blame him for that, I do think us not finishing in the play-offs this season is as much of a failure as it was in Pulis' last season. One thing I really don't get (and I'm not saying you're doing this by the way) is people who properly throw Gibson under the bus for hiring Woodgate and accept what happened was as expected when giving him the job... but then come out and say Warnock is doing a great job given the 'progress' from last year. The difference is someone who knows how to do the job vs. somebody who doesn't, the squad is about the same. In my line of work, if we gave a trainee or a junior the same tools and the same task to lead a project, I wouldn't expect them to do it well. If we gave an experienced lead the same job, I'd expect them to do it well. It's as simple as that. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
GrimsbyBoro 1,968 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 28 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said: Problem is, whilst finishing higher than last season represents progress from that, in the long-term, it still represents a downward trend since relegation. Woodgate didn't destroy our squad, he didn't destroy our club, he was a poor inexperienced coach who took a team who had been finishing in the top third of the division and nearly took it down. Warnock came in last year and he relatively comfortably managed to get us avoiding relegation in the end because he's a competent, experienced manager. With quite a similar squad this year, we're still on a downward trend from where Pulis left us unless we break back into the play-off pack, which surely isn't gonna happen now, the manager has downed tools on that front. As much as I don't blame him for that, I do think us not finishing in the play-offs this season is as much of a failure as it was in Pulis' last season. One thing I really don't get (and I'm not saying you're doing this by the way) is people who properly throw Gibson under the bus for hiring Woodgate and accept what happened was as expected when giving him the job... but then come out and say Warnock is doing a great job given the 'progress' from last year. The difference is someone who knows how to do the job vs. somebody who doesn't, the squad is about the same. In my line of work, if we gave a trainee or a junior the same tools and the same task to lead a project, I wouldn't expect them to do it well. If we gave an experienced lead the same job, I'd expect them to do it well. It's as simple as that. The Woodgate appointment was a strange one. I would like to say it was the right idea but the wrong man - but I don’t believe that the golden thread etc was actually an idea or a philosophy that existed before his appointment but rather spin that occurred afterwards. I am sure Gibson looked at the quality of the squad and thought at worst we would be mid table and if things went well we would be around the play offs and playing football the fans wanted to see. I do think Woodgate vastly under performed. The squad wasn’t dissimilar to the Pulis one and certainly had the better players left in it. It looked like we went from super rigid management to ‘just go out and play’. I think you see with a lot of inexperienced managers that they are okay when things are going well but when things take a turn for the worse they struggle. It’s probably because they don’t have that experience to fall back on to know when you stick and when you twist. I don’t fully blame Woodgate though as my coach once said to me - it’s not your fault your crap. That said the slump started long before Woodgate was appointed. He certainly didn’t destroy the squad or the club. Initially the slump probably started the season before Eindhoven. We then had a blip under Karanka and haven’t recovered from that Premier league season. Regarding Warnock I don’t think he’s done an amazing job but rather levelled us out. We are a team that is not quite good enough for the playoffs. Which is where we were at the end of Pulis reign. I think there’s even an argument that since the transfer window we have under performed. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,933 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I think the golden thread was a genuine idea, and the reason for that is that since Bevington left the club it's something he talks about regularly on his Twitter and in the media (not from a Boro perspective, just in terms of genuine football philosophy). You can tell he's very passionate about it and buys into the idea. The problem either came when trying to implement it or Gibson didn't fully buy into it or abandoned ship at the first sign of trouble. I suspect the latter but we'll probably never know. Link to post Share on other sites
Downsouth 6,325 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 10 hours ago, Neverbefore said: I think the golden thread was a genuine idea, and the reason for that is that since Bevington left the club it's something he talks about regularly on his Twitter and in the media (not from a Boro perspective, just in terms of genuine football philosophy). You can tell he's very passionate about it and buys into the idea. The problem either came when trying to implement it or Gibson didn't fully buy into it or abandoned ship at the first sign of trouble. I suspect the latter but we'll probably never know. Don't know about golden thread but at this time will take any sort of silver lining! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GrimsbyBoro 1,968 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 10 hours ago, Neverbefore said: I think the golden thread was a genuine idea, and the reason for that is that since Bevington left the club it's something he talks about regularly on his Twitter and in the media (not from a Boro perspective, just in terms of genuine football philosophy). You can tell he's very passionate about it and buys into the idea. The problem either came when trying to implement it or Gibson didn't fully buy into it or abandoned ship at the first sign of trouble. I suspect the latter but we'll probably never know. We are really the perfect club for that kind of philosophy. People rave about Brentford’s money ball system - I think we have really missed the boat with our academy. We should be looked at as the English Ajax and the golden thread really compliments this. Instead we have spent about 5 years saying we are broke and a decade flipping between management styles. I don’t think it was genuine from the club as it wasn’t a thought before Woodgate or after. I can well believe it’s something Bevington tried to bring to the club and took with him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, GrimsbyBoro said: We have clearly progressed this season. By the end of this season we will have scored more goals, won more matches and accumulated more points that last season. There has been no hint of a relegation battle and until recently we had a chance of promotion via the play offs. If that’s not progress from a relegation battle then I don’t know what is progress. I think you could fairly argue that it hasn’t been enough progress, that this squad should be doing better or that the football is far from entertaining but I really struggle to see how there has been no progress. Technically and statistically you're correct, but really its like saying catching a cold is better than catching flu. I don't imagine the majority of fans are exactly thrilled with how this season has gone, or the kind of football we've been playing. Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Neverbefore said: I think the golden thread was a genuine idea, and the reason for that is that since Bevington left the club it's something he talks about regularly on his Twitter and in the media (not from a Boro perspective, just in terms of genuine football philosophy). You can tell he's very passionate about it and buys into the idea. The problem either came when trying to implement it or Gibson didn't fully buy into it or abandoned ship at the first sign of trouble. I suspect the latter but we'll probably never know. Either that or they had the idea, but then were completely clueless as to how to implement it properly. Its all very well having an idea, but in order for it to work, you then have to draw up a detailed plan of what needs to happen and who is going to do which tasks. Stuff like costs and timelines also usually figure in there somewhere. We heard a lot about the idea, but very little about its execution. If they wanted Boro to be the English Ajax, maybe sending someone over to talk to the club and look at their methods might have helped? 🤷♂️ For the record, I really wish it had worked. I would have loved to see our academy finally fulfilling its intended purpose of turning out youngsters good enough to step into the first team and push the club onwards, instead of paying over the odds for big name players who probably don't really want to be there. Edited April 14, 2021 by AnglianRed 2 Link to post Share on other sites
diggerlad07 3,685 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 15 hours ago, Changing Times said: I managed to have a listen of it. I hope you're not that fella who said that 12th would be an outstanding achievement this season. Must be off his bloody head 🤦♂️ Ha ha No I was the one who was shaking his head at the comment! Would be good to get your opinions on the station 👍👍. I was the one who was blasting Warnock Link to post Share on other sites
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