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Ouch 🤣

When you see something like that it makes you think about stuff and I think its an appropriate time to also say how positive this forum is for myself and my mental health and mood.  It’s a great place

The problem with the gesture itself (in my opinion) is that there are no concrete goals. 'End racism' is a noble idea, but how do we know when that's been achieved? Can it be achieved? I wonder i

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11 hours ago, Changing Times said:

If we've got rid of the police by then we can all have a proper rumble without fear of arrest 💪👊

If some had their way, they might just gang up on you, tie you up, stuff you in a suitcase and stick you on the next flight to Portugal. 😁

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The problem with the gesture itself (in my opinion) is that there are no concrete goals. 'End racism' is a noble idea, but how do we know when that's been achieved? Can it be achieved?

I wonder if the movement would be better supported if it had some concrete goals such as "We're taking the knee before every game until steps to protect players from racist abuse are implemented by the social media companies. Or until UEFA/FIFA take a harsher (or at the very least consistent) stance on racist abuse from fans within stadiums."

I just think people would find that far easier to back. And it removes association with the US Black Lives Matter organisation, which is what some of the booing is directed at.

Some of the people booing will actually be racist. Watching England at major tournaments is one of my favourite things... but I can't deny there is a seriously nasty contingent within the away fans in particular. And it's not a small one, sadly.

Other fans simply want to escape for 2 hours at the football and don't want to be forced to think about something they don't really care about by people they see as a million times more privileged than themselves. You could argue it's an ignorant mindset but I honestly think that's as deep as it goes with most of the people booing.

My suggestion would be just sit quietly through the 5 seconds it takes if you don't like it, but there we go. It will be gutting to see our players booed by their own fans at the Euros.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, SouthernSmoggie said:

The problem with the gesture itself (in my opinion) is that there are no concrete goals. 'End racism' is a noble idea, but how do we know when that's been achieved? Can it be achieved?

I wonder if the movement would be better supported if it had some concrete goals such as "We're taking the knee before every game until steps to protect players from racist abuse are implemented by the social media companies. Or until UEFA/FIFA take a harsher (or at the very least consistent) stance on racist abuse from fans within stadiums."

I just think people would find that far easier to back. And it removes association with the US Black Lives Matter organisation, which is what some of the booing is directed at.

Some of the people booing will actually be racist. Watching England at major tournaments is one of my favourite things... but I can't deny there is a seriously nasty contingent within the away fans in particular. And it's not a small one, sadly.

Other fans simply want to escape for 2 hours at the football and don't want to be forced to think about something they don't really care about by people they see as a million times more privileged than themselves. You could argue it's an ignorant mindset but I honestly think that's as deep as it goes with most of the people booing.

My suggestion would be just sit quietly through the 5 seconds it takes if you don't like it, but there we go. It will be gutting to see our players booed by their own fans at the Euros.

Great post.

I personally have no issue with players choosing to take the knee, but I also see why some people boo it as it's going to do nothing while UEFA and FIFA are so blatant about not punishing people found guilty of racism properly. 

And some of those people booing are just simply racist, sadly.

Edited by Denzel Zanzibar
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

Just heard there were boos over taking the knee at the Riverside last night. Argue all you want about its effectiveness but what are people booing now? At this point, it's people actively taking a stance against whatever extremist minority 'took a hold' of the BLM movement that are perpetuating that idea as an active force in the battle against racism.

People say taking the knee was 'hijacked' or whatever, sod off, you can't move on and recognise football will continue to do this to promote a purely anti-racism message. It's on you if you view that in any other way, at this point. Shame on those who booed.

Well I was annoyed because for me its about respecting people's choices...which surely is a big part of tolerance, inclusivity etc.

The players made a choice to take the knee before kick-off and the fans should respect that decision.

For the record I actually disagree with it as I feel it serves no purpose and achieves nothing...but I still respect the right of players to do it and would never boo them.

Whether or not you support BLM or agree with their aims, I feel fans should at least show respect to the players - who very likely are purely motivated by the anti-racism message. Just look at the abuse black players are still getting on social media. That is very likely why they are taking this decision.

Last but not least, it was a televised international game. Booing what was intended as a show of support for their black colleagues just makes Middlesbrough people look like racist, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals, who are still stuck in the 1980s (or would have done, had the rest not drowned them out with applause...props to them for that).

 

Edited by AnglianRed
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2 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Well I was annoyed because for me its about respecting people's choices...which surely is a big part of tolerance, inclusivity etc.

The players made a choice to take the knee before kick-off and the fans should respect that decision.

For the record I actually disagree with it as I feel it serves no purpose and achieves nothing...but I still respect the right of players to do it and would never boo them.

Whether or not you support BLM or agree with their aims, I feel fans should at least show respect to the players - who very likely are purely motivated by the anti-racism message. Just look at the abuse black players are still getting on social media. That is very likely why they are taking this decision.

Last but not least, it was a televised match of an international game. Booing what was intended as a show of support for their black colleagues just makes Middlesbrough people look like racist, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals, who are still stuck in the 1980s.

 

Aye, it wasn't a good look and it's going to happen again this weekend, sadly.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Changing Times said:

Reform the police is reform the police, defund the police is defund the police.  Those two things aren't interchangeable, they are very different. 

I think specifically in the US and in some places those two things are interchangeable. The LA police department takes up 16% of the City's budget or 46% of the unrestricted funds available to the City (depending on what side of the coin you believe). In this case defunding the police would certainly bring about a change in how the City is policed. I also think a lot of people would agree that in some instances both of those points need to happen. I think from a UK view point reform in the police is probably the bigger issue of the two.

13 hours ago, Changing Times said:

As for how many feel that way, I have no idea how many people do, and really neither do you.  It's easy to pass something off as only being a minority when it's something that isn't palatable.

That's a fair point. I'm drawing from my own experiences of interacting and discussing this point with people I know and those people the idea of completely disbanding the police is in the minority. But in a wider societal sense I can't claim it's a minority etc.

Edit:

@SouthernSmoggie and @AnglianRed sum up my thoughts on the whole gesture/booing the gesture better than I probably have! Especially after all my ramblings.

I actually think most of us on the board are probably approaching it from different angles to get to the same goal. As I said at the start I just don't see the point in booing a gesture, that the players are using to promote something they believe as separate from the BLM organisation.

Edited by DanFromDownSouth
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6 hours ago, AnglianRed said:

If some had their way, they might just gang up on you, tie you up, stuff you in a suitcase and stick you on the next flight to Portugal. 😁

Wow, the gift of a free holiday to show oneBoro's appreciation of me 🙌

I am blessed 🙏

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6 hours ago, AnglianRed said:

The players made a choice to take the knee before kick-off and the fans should respect that decision.

For the record I actually disagree with it as I feel it serves no purpose and achieves nothing...but I still respect the right of players to do it and would never boo them.

Aren't you black or I am completely misunderstanding something I thought you'd said on here?  You are against the kneeling?

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5 hours ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

I think specifically in the US and in some places those two things are interchangeable. The LA police department takes up 16% of the City's budget or 46% of the unrestricted funds available to the City (depending on what side of the coin you believe). In this case defunding the police would certainly bring about a change in how the City is policed. I also think a lot of people would agree that in some instances both of those points need to happen. I think from a UK view point reform in the police is probably the bigger issue of the two.

No I don't think they are mate.  I did some reading a while back and there is a very clear demarcation between the two because there are large numbers of people who don't want a police force at all.

To take your way of thinking though.  Let's say we defund the police in LA.  How does that lead to black suspects not being shot by policemen or over-aggressively policed let's say, which is what prompted this?  Do the police suddenly behave differently for some reason?  If so, why?  Why is a reduction of funding altering how they act?  Or are all these social projects some kind of code for reducing the number of black suspects for crimes, and isn't that kinda racist in itself?  I just don't follow how this makes a difference at all.  The issue isn't funding, it's reform.  You need to change the behaviour within the police force itself, something that will be extremely difficult overall in the US because there are about 400 million guns in circulation there.

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Appears Henderson and Maguire are not going to be fit for Croatia. In which case I’d go with...

Pickford

Walker Stones Coady

Trippier               Shaw

Rice Mount

Sancho Kane Foden

 

Would anyone deviate from that?

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4 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Appears Henderson and Maguire are not going to be fit for Croatia. In which case I’d go with...

Pickford

Walker Stones Coady

Trippier               Shaw

Rice Mount

Sancho Kane Foden

 

Would anyone deviate from that?

I reckon Gareth Southgate will.

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15 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

No I don't think they are mate.  I did some reading a while back and there is a very clear demarcation between the two because there are large numbers of people who don't want a police force at all.

To take your way of thinking though.  Let's say we defund the police in LA.  How does that lead to black suspects not being shot by policemen or over-aggressively policed let's say, which is what prompted this?  Do the police suddenly behave differently for some reason?  If so, why?  Why is a reduction of funding altering how they act?  Or are all these social projects some kind of code for reducing the number of black suspects for crimes, and isn't that kinda racist in itself?  I just don't follow how this makes a difference at all.  The issue isn't funding, it's reform.  You need to change the behaviour within the police force itself, something that will be extremely difficult overall in the US because there are about 400 million guns in circulation there.

To re-route funding from the actual front facing Police and tackle the "route causes" of crime or at least fund projects that can prevent people getting to the stage were they become participants of crime. That of course isn't going to stop crime happening at the current moment and you'll probably still have the same things happening without reform targeting the present as you say. But you can hopefully help limit the next generation (or next wave) of crime.

By defunding that element of the police they will have to alter their way of working, as the money is funnelled elsewhere. In effect you are almost creating reform by defunding elements of the police. If you catch my drift?

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