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I think, to be fair, that Ramsdale will be gone as long as Henderson makes it through the Europa League final. There's (I think) 12 players in this provisional squad who are potentially playing in the Europa League with United or the Champions League with Chelsea and City.

The only odd thing about that is that I feel like Gareth has no reason to name a provisional 33. He could have named the 26 then had the other 7 in reserve. He's literally gonna have the reserves in to make up the numbers for what, 3 days? What's he gonna learn in those 3 days that's gonna persuade him not to pick the lads from the teams involved in Europe? The final squad gets announced on Tuesday then they play on the Wednesday. So none of them will even get a minute of game-time. Surely he already knows who his 26 are and is only gonna change that based on what happens in those games.

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6 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I think, to be fair, that Ramsdale will be gone as long as Henderson makes it through the Europa League final. There's (I think) 12 players in this provisional squad who are potentially playing in the Europa League with United or the Champions League with Chelsea and City.

The only odd thing about that is that I feel like Gareth has no reason to name a provisional 33. He could have named the 26 then had the other 7 in reserve. He's literally gonna have the reserves in to make up the numbers for what, 3 days? What's he gonna learn in those 3 days that's gonna persuade him not to pick the lads from the teams involved in Europe? The final squad gets announced on Tuesday then they play on the Wednesday. So none of them will even get a minute of game-time. Surely he already knows who his 26 are and is only gonna change that based on what happens in those games.

I presume it's because it's better for morale if they're provisionally called up for training.

If they're told outright that they're only with the squad to train in case other players are injured in the finals and they've no chance otherwise, it's bound to impact their focus and determination in training. 

From what Southgate was saying, none of those players in the finals will feature in the friendly against Austria whatever happens.

So the additional 7 will feel part of the set up and integrated and will be ready to play immediately if the worst should happen.

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20 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

Southgate has essentially said he was pleased with the forwards he picked in March so has stuck with them when not putting Ings or Bamford in. Arguably they should have been in contention by then too but it just seems like an unwillingness to even be open-minded about it, to me. It sounds like his mind has been made up for ages and I imagine that's also the case with plenty of others.

I dunno, maybe others would disagree with me on this but I think club form should almost entirely trump performance in the International qualifiers or friendlies. Otherwise how does a club player actually play themselves into a squad? 90% of International games are either against rubbish opposition in qualifiers or meaningless fluff to the calendar, Fikayo Tomori, Patrick Bamford, Danny Ings, these are all playing against better opposition than Albania and San Marino every week so if it's a choice between players who've done well for England a few months ago against nobodies or who've done well for their club in more competitive games, the latter surely trumps it.

Then it's up to the manager to bring a group of the best players and get them firing in a short time-frame, that's what these games at the Riverside will help with. The balance is picking the best players for the squad whilst also being able to create a system from them, not to just stick with players you know. It's surely all part of the challenge of being an International manager.

Always served me well in FM, too¬†ūüėĄ¬†Obviously an aside, it's a game at the end of the day... but¬†I've almost always gone against what feels like the public consensus in my FM19 game and picked players who are either in the best form recently for qualifiers¬†or take that into account with who has had the best seasons when it comes to tournament squads. Practice what you preach and all that. Previous with England is barely a factor for me.¬†And I've had good success internationally.¬†I've given tons of players their debuts and sacked off others who don't do the business anymore.

I'll hand my CV over to the FA after Southgate gets sacked.¬†ūüĎć

I wanted to like AND laugh at your post...so I went with the latter.

Totally agree that club form should take precedence over previous England form. Club form is much more recent for one thing...and as you said, usually against higher quality opposition (particularly if they've been playing overseas or in European competitions).

I've really hated the last several England managers who have blindly stuck with their favourites, even when they were clearly not doing the business.

I'm definitely in the camp that says players should be in the team on merit - not reputation.

 

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10 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

I wanted to like AND laugh at your post...so I went with the latter.

Totally agree that club form should take precedence over previous England form. Club form is much more recent for one thing...and as you said, usually against higher quality opposition (particularly if they've been playing overseas or in European competitions).

I've really hated the last several England managers who have blindly stuck with their favourites, even when they were clearly not doing the business.

I'm definitely in the camp that says players should be in the team on merit - not reputation.

 

That's been our problem in the past picking out of form players on what they could do rather than on merit. Greenwood and Lingard have been on fire, Sterling has been struggling to get in the Man City starting 11 of late, but I'll gamble 1st game we play in the Euro's he'll be in from the start. That's why we win bugger all small minded managers with tunnel vision.

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21 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

I presume it's because it's better for morale if they're provisionally called up for training.

If they're told outright that they're only with the squad to train in case other players are injured in the finals and they've no chance otherwise, it's bound to impact their focus and determination in training. 

From what Southgate was saying, none of those players in the finals will feature in the friendly against Austria whatever happens.

So the additional 7 will feel part of the set up and integrated and will be ready to play immediately if the worst should happen.

I guess so. It depends on the character of the players but it feels like a tease, to me.

Spain and Slovakia have gone the other way entirely, named 24-men squads instead of 26. Spain manager has said only 18-19 will play so doesn't want to bring them for no reason. That feels even dafter. I'd be really disappointed as a Spain player if I was a potential 25 or 26. You never know what injuries can occur before or during a tournament. Just makes their squad weaker as a result.

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29 minutes ago, Rioch's Braves said:

I hope Southgate has the bottle to take Greenwood the kids absolute class, skillful can beat a man, scores goals with either foot. 

I think Greenwood will be in the final squad, personally. Like Rashford before him, just doesn't seem remotely fazed by his status in the game as a 19-year old, United have struck gold with those two.

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3 hours ago, Essuuaitch said:

. 

ok ill comment on the 33 provisional picks first and its a tad dissapointing to me in that theres maybe 10 or so included that i wouldnt have chosen, a mixture of reasons some havent been that good lately and some just arent good enough , full stop. so gk to attackers ,im not on board with Ramsdale, Saka, Trippier, Bellingham, Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Sterling and Lingard. 

Really? In what regard? 
 

I’m not going to defend them all individually but everyone of those you’ve listed has at least some form of top top talent or experience. I don’t know much about Ramsdale and Saka would probably just miss out due to the pool of talent up front but the others all go for me. Quite easily.

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Thinking about the 7 to get cut if everyone is fit, I think I'd go; Ramsdale, James, White, Godfrey, Saka, Lingard and Ward-Prowse. Think all of them can consider themselves very unlucky, if they are the ones to be cut. 

I think with Lingard and Saka there are just too many others ahead of them in my opinion in the attacking spots (and wingback for Saka's case).

White, Godfrey and James barring injury and huge drops in form will probably make the next tournament squad, think Coady for his experience in a 3 (and his leadership, which gets overlooked) and Mings being a left footed centre half get them in ahead of White and Godfrey, this time. Then James and Trent is a really tough call, but just my personal opinion, Trent squeezes in ahead of him...just.

Then in a tournament like this realistically will a 4th central midfielder play much, probably not, so give that space to Bellingham. Partly to give him exposure to tournament football (which if he doesn't play will benefit him) partly because he is actually quite good (City Away case in point) and partly because he is a different option in midfield to the other 3.

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When it comes to Bamford... Gareth had to ask the questions:

Is he good enough to start? No. Kane will play almost every minute bar injury in the CF spot - there's realistically space for a 2nd CF to get some game time as a sub. A 3rd striker is purely there for an injury crisis.

Has he done enough to displace Watkins or Calvert Lewin who have recently come into the squad and scored? Maybe, but its very borderline. Gareth obviously decided the answer was no.

Once someone has won their shirt in international football, they deserve at least a little time to keep it and defend it. Is it really worth doing the hokey cokey with 3rd and 4th choice players? It's probably fairer to let Watkins and Calvert Lewin keep their shirts for now.

If Bamford keeps his form up he will get his chance. Or if Watkins/DCL lose form over the same period they'll lose their spots - just like Alli and Dier have.

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42 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

Thinking about the 7 to get cut if everyone is fit, I think I'd go; Ramsdale, James, White, Godfrey, Saka, Lingard and Ward-Prowse. Think all of them can consider themselves very unlucky, if they are the ones to be cut. 

I think with Lingard and Saka there are just too many others ahead of them in my opinion in the attacking spots (and wingback for Saka's case).

White, Godfrey and James barring injury and huge drops in form will probably make the next tournament squad, think Coady for his experience in a 3 (and his leadership, which gets overlooked) and Mings being a left footed centre half get them in ahead of White and Godfrey, this time. Then James and Trent is a really tough call, but just my personal opinion, Trent squeezes in ahead of him...just.

Then in a tournament like this realistically will a 4th central midfielder play much, probably not, so give that space to Bellingham. Partly to give him exposure to tournament football (which if he doesn't play will benefit him) partly because he is actually quite good (City Away case in point) and partly because he is a different option in midfield to the other 3.

 

I'll go...

Ramsdale

TAA

Godfrey

White

Saka

Greenwood

Watkins

 

I think Greenwood could very easily go and Sancho could stay at home as well mind. Lingard being named amongst the midfielders makes me think Southgate seems him as a possible stand in for the role Mount plays in centre midfield. We know Lingard can play either side of the striker as well which is why i think he'll go.

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54 minutes ago, SouthernSmoggie said:

When it comes to Bamford... Gareth had to ask the questions:

Is he good enough to start? No. Kane will play almost every minute bar injury in the CF spot - there's realistically space for a 2nd CF to get some game time as a sub. A 3rd striker is purely there for an injury crisis.

Has he done enough to displace Watkins or Calvert Lewin who have recently come into the squad and scored? Maybe, but its very borderline. Gareth obviously decided the answer was no.

Once someone has won their shirt in international football, they deserve at least a little time to keep it and defend it. Is it really worth doing the hokey cokey with 3rd and 4th choice players? It's probably fairer to let Watkins and Calvert Lewin keep their shirts for now.

If Bamford keeps his form up he will get his chance. Or if Watkins/DCL lose form over the same period they'll lose their spots - just like Alli and Dier have.

That's a fair point, and Watkins and Bamford were much closer in stats when when Watkins was called up the first time, and had also had a much better previous season.

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its quite a turn round regarding the right and left full back/wing back choices compared to previous times. we now find ourselves with a glut of possibilities when in the past if you were english , played ffor a top club and were reasonably reliable you got in. 

 

right sided is the biggest dilemma with TAA, Walker, James, Trippier and one or two up and coming candidates such as WanBissaka, Lamptey (if available and not commited elsewhere) and ive even heard claims for Justin. Walker will get in because he can be utilised centrally in aback3 but imo hes behind TAA and james ,all things covered as a wing back. 

on the left Shaw is currently most adeppt and on form but Chilwell is very close behind, Saka doesnt look comppletely comfortable too far back and then we have  Cresswell as a option plus Mings or White could be utilised. 

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1 hour ago, Humpty said:

Kyle Walker is first choice at right back for me by a considerable distance. He’s been outstanding this season.

As good as Walker has been, I wouldn't be surprised if Trippier is 1st choice, he has genuinely been Atletico Madrid's best performer. When he first moved to them I was a bit surprised, but he has raised his game and is arguably one of the first names on the team sheet. In all honesty I don't think there is much between them, if we play a back 5 I think they'll both start.

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