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Boro vs Birmingham 0-2


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12 minutes ago, Rioch's Braves said:

I would be far happier getting promotion sooner rather than later, if you look at Brighton and Burnley they have no standout superstars in the squad but have managed to hold their own in the PL. Its about getting the right manager in who knows what he's doing and who has a scouting network that can source good quality players at reasonable prices.  I don't go with the punching above your weight scenario we have proven that we fill the Riverside to 30000 plus capacity when in the PL, nobody is going to compete with the elite PL clubs owned by billionaires, but after that there is no other clubs in the league that are particularly outstanding. We need the chairman to show the same ambition he had when Robson and McLaren were managers, so that's no more dinosaurs in charge but an ambitious modern football manager who comes with a decent track record who wants to be competitive in the PL. 

We also need to mirror that with the expectation that we get relegated. We were “ambitious” last time and left ourselves in a terrible position. Whilst I never want to be Norwich yo-yoing for a few seasons wouldn’t be the worst thing if it’s with a long term view to being a premier league team

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Middlesbrough FC vs Birmingham City FC                                                                                  Saturday 30th October – 3:00 pm                                             

Out of all the reasons, one is most important - appointment of Agnew when we still had a good chance of staying up. We threw in the towel with however many number of games left to go with that decisio

Mate it’s against 3 of the poorest teams in the league. The issue is that time and time again Warnock has shown that he can’t cut it anymore against better teams.  Why did he change a winning side a

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5 minutes ago, GrimsbyBoro said:

We also need to mirror that with the expectation that we get relegated. We were “ambitious” last time and left ourselves in a terrible position. Whilst I never want to be Norwich yo-yoing for a few seasons wouldn’t be the worst thing if it’s with a long term view to being a premier league team

We went into the PL last time with championship players, midfield players the likes of Leadbitter and Clayton who were never going to be good enough and with a manager who tried to play the same style of football he was playing in the Championship and that was never going to work in the PL and Karanka had no Plan B and a refusal to change. The squad was never good enough, the outstanding player over the season was Ben Gibson. I personally don't think we were ambitious once we got into the PL we didn't bring the quality in we all knew we needed and once Karanka had gone who does Gibson put in charge to give us at least a fighting chance to stay in the league, Steve Nice Guy Agnew.

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1 hour ago, TheJew said:

You're better going up and then.buying 3/4 of the top Championship players. Then if you go down, stick with the bulk of that squad and go again.

Players historically like Jarrod Bowen etc.

If only it were that simple.

First you have to get promoted.

Second, you have to hope those players are available and willing to sign for you (even with your newly-found PL status).

Third, you have to do it without paying stupid money in transfer fees and wages, which will eat up most of your parachute payments. If you're not willing to pay them the big bucks they're expecting, they might just stay where they are.

Fourth, signing mercenary players who are just there for the money, will likely result in many of them wanting out if we do get relegated (again no guarantee we would bounce straight back).

In any case, hanging on to players on big wages in the hope we can get straight back up has caused us financial problems in the past.

 

Very short-sighted planning really. Better in the long run to create a culture, identity and build a squad of players who are genuinely invested in the club and want to be here for reasons other than how much we can pay them.

 

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6 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread, most recent pages were a good read but no actual discussions of how we played yesterday.

Gonna be that guy and ask if someone can give me a summary please?

First half was scrappy from both sides. Not much decent football played, but Boro were marginally better. Created more chances. Uche missed a golden chance to give us the lead - headed over when it would've been easier to score. We created a few more chances that went begging (including a Howson shot straight at the keeper). 

Second half Birmingham started better. Boro imploded with less than an hour played. First Lumley came way out for a free kick he was never going to get to. Easy header over him for the first goal. Second goal a few minutes later, our defence went AWOL. Bamba and one other guy desperately chasing back, couldn't quite get there and Lumley somehow allowed their attacker an easy shot underneath him for the second.

Boro were basically shell-shocked after that. Didn't have another shot at goal all game. Brum grew increasingly confident and saw the game out with a minimum of fuss.

 

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29 minutes ago, Rioch's Braves said:

We went into the PL last time with championship players, midfield players the likes of Leadbitter and Clayton who were never going to be good enough and with a manager who tried to play the same style of football he was playing in the Championship and that was never going to work in the PL and Karanka had no Plan B and a refusal to change. The squad was never good enough, the outstanding player over the season was Ben Gibson. I personally don't think we were ambitious once we got into the PL we didn't bring the quality in we all knew we needed and once Karanka had gone who does Gibson put in charge to give us at least a fighting chance to stay in the league, Steve Nice Guy Agnew.

In that summer window we signed Adama, Valdes, Gaston, De Roon and Fischer plus brought in Chambers and Negredo on loan. 

I think there was plenty of ambition.

Gibson was talking about not just being in the league to make up the numbers and how Europe was the aim.

Some of the signing ultimately didn’t work out but I really believe it’s revisionalist to say we weren’t ambitious.

I think that ambition somewhat went out of the window in January but I think even at that point the powers that be thought we had enough to stay up.

Agnew was a nonsense appointment that showed we had raised the white flag by that point.

we certainly did go up with a Norwich or previous to that West Brom mindset of keep the squad and enjoy the ride.

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One reason why we will never make the play offs under warnock is our lack of chances created. We rarely trouble teams, we don’t dominate the ball and therefore just can’t break teams down.

This all comes from the coaching, the team is clearly not being coached well enough on attacking formations and patterns. Under Karanka you could watch us and wether it was working or not at least see what the plan was to break down the defence.

Warnock is all about winning 2nd balls and hopefully getting a break away. When we put a decent passing move together it’s all over Twitter and our fans are buzzing over it, that shows how little passing moves we actually put together. 
 

Even if we did make the play offs we would be swept aside most likely by a team that operates at a far higher level technically. We play league 1 tactics with championship players, our games often end up flat and drab because our defending is generally ok but our attackers don’t have a clue what to do apart so they play off the cuff to some Extent. We’re going nowhere.

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7 hours ago, Humpty said:

There is no guarantee of staying in the Premier League whether you splurge money on the squad or build the squad in a sustainable way. 

The bottom line is that the club needs Premier League money to grow. Whether that means going up, coming down and building that way, then so be it. The sooner that happens the better. I've never understood the argument that "we're not ready to go up" better a season spent in the Premier League than the Championship. 

We spent over a decade in the Premier League, but all it took was one bad season and lack of a plan to deal with getting relegated to see the club stuck in the Championship for 7 years.

We got promoted under Karanka and spent big, but a disjointed squad that didn't gel (plus the manager having a major bust-up) saw us go straight back down.

THAT's why you "need to be ready" or at least have a plan in place to deal with most foreseeable problems.

Of course there are never any guarantees, but we've had ample experience of what happens when we just blindly splurge money without any real idea of what we are doing. Its not just the relegation that follows, but the years of cost-cutting, selling our best players, bringing in managers to keep us going on a shoestring budget.

And did anybody really enjoy that last season in the PL? I sure as hell didn't.

Quite frankly I'd rather we stayed in the Championship rather than see us go up with that hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach, knowing we're likely to just be cannon fodder for the other teams.

 

 

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2 hours ago, GrimsbyBoro said:

In that summer window we signed Adama, Valdes, Gaston, De Roon and Fischer plus brought in Chambers and Negredo on loan. 

I think there was plenty of ambition.

Gibson was talking about not just being in the league to make up the numbers and how Europe was the aim.

Some of the signing ultimately didn’t work out but I really believe it’s revisionalist to say we weren’t ambitious.

I think that ambition somewhat went out of the window in January but I think even at that point the powers that be thought we had enough to stay up.

Agnew was a nonsense appointment that showed we had raised the white flag by that point.

we certainly did go up with a Norwich or previous to that West Brom mindset of keep the squad and enjoy the ride.

In my opinion I don't think we had anywhere enough quality to stay in the PL, De Roon was our biggest signing and was never a player who's style of play was to boss a midfield, Adama was an unknown quantity and a green as grass player with pace and no end product and was a like for like signing with Adomah going the other way, Fischer was a player who had lost his way after a promising start at Ajax poor signing and not a big signing, Gaston signed from Saints good skillful player with a poor attitude, Valdes free signing and Chambers and Negredo coupled with 2nd rate Spaniards. All in all we needed a lot more than that.

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1 minute ago, Rioch's Braves said:

In my opinion I don't think we had anywhere enough quality to stay in the PL, De Roon was our biggest signing and was never a player who's style of play was to boss a midfield, Adama was an unknown quantity and a green as grass player with pace and no end product and was a like for like signing with Adomah going the other way, Fischer was a player who had lost his way after a promising start at Ajax poor signing and not a big signing, Gaston signed from Saints good skillful player with a poor attitude, Valdes free signing and Chambers and Negredo coupled with 2nd rate Spaniards. All in all we needed a lot more than that.

Totally disagree with this. Our biggest problem was that we signed far too many players. 12 in the summer and another 3 in January. This is brain dead stuff. We had a team that had gelled and got promoted. We should have signed a maximum of 4 new players and no more. We had the quality to stay up that year but we chose to water it down to the point where nobody knew anybody and our team spirit was destroyed. Whole sale changes do not work. Never have and never will 

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I don’t think we signed too many players, more that we signed players expected to go straight into the team rather than earn a place.

I don’t care if we are ‘not ready’ for the prem, the financial benefits are just too great to any club. Not only do we get £100 odd million but the parachute payments but just as importantly wiggle room on ffp.

I don’t mind the idea of going up and hoovering up young talent from the championship and abroad with a longer term plan in place, relegation doesn’t bother me as long as you can see some progress.

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@Blanco. Totally agree. We needed 4/5 solid addictions not 15 of which 2/3 were mediocre. Burnley came up same year as us and kept nucleus of their team and are still in PL. Leeds last year kept likes of Ayling, Cooper, Dallas, Phillips, Harrison, Bamford etc but added quality in form of Llorente, Raphinha, Rodrigo etc.

If we had kept nucleus of our team and added 2 more in the mould of De Roon and Negredo we would have been so much better for it.

What is utterly annoying is we made whole sale changes that summer and it did not work and then went and made whole changes again 12 months later under Monk and are still feeling effects of such stupidity 5years later

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3 hours ago, Blanco said:

Totally disagree with this. Our biggest problem was that we signed far too many players. 12 in the summer and another 3 in January. This is brain dead stuff. We had a team that had gelled and got promoted. We should have signed a maximum of 4 new players and no more. We had the quality to stay up that year but we chose to water it down to the point where nobody knew anybody and our team spirit was destroyed. Whole sale changes do not work. Never have and never will 

What quality did we have to stay up we got promoted by the skin of our teeth we had championship level players. going into the PL.

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9 minutes ago, Rioch's Braves said:

What quality did we have to stay up we got promoted by the skin of our teeth we had championship level players. going into the PL.

Have to agree with this. None of the players we replaced that summer went on to play at a decent level. Nsue, adomah, Rhodes etc were all never anywhere near premier league level, and our best performers that season, imo, were chambers, negredo, de roon, valdes (for the part he could be arsed) and Gibson. The rest of the signings were pretty poor - mediocre, it was the quality of the attacking players that we brought in that was the issue, not the quantity. 

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