Derby County.

[osvaldo 36]

I noticed a lot of derby fans saying boro are in breach of P&S and it could be why Gibson is claiming against them. I think it’s complete nonsense but might be worth confirming. These Derby fans don’t seem to deal in facts. After all it’s Gibson fault they are in the situation they are in and nothing at all to do with Mel Morris.

Anyway…Here is my understanding:

The EFL adapted the rules last year, following a vote among the league’s 24 clubs, so the two Covid-impacted seasons of 2019/20 and 2020/21 are now taken as an average.

 

So for last year’s P&S submission boro contained the £6m loss from 2018/19, the £2m profit from 2019/20 and the £36m deficit from 2020/21, with the last two figures then packaged as a £17m loss plus a forecast for 2021/22. I got these figures from Swiss ramble on Twitter who seems to have a good grip on clubs financial submissions. 

 

So our submission last year was a total loss of £23million plus forecast.

 

This year’s 22/23 submission we’ll submit the packaged £17m for 19/20 & 20/21 push whatever profit/loss we make for the 21/22 season plus a forecast for 22/23.

 

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

 

In the unlikely event that we post a loss of £20-25m in the next few months we could be in trouble and we’ll certainly need to cash in on assets(Spence) to be good for future submissions. I think it will be unlikely as our wage bill has dropped with some big earners gone and I think we got a few mill for the Braithwaite to barca deal. Could be wrong tho

 

Ps These figures don’t include the allowed deductions like training ground, youth expenses, etc 

Edited February 14, 2022 by osvaldo

[Brunners 7,982]

2 minutes ago, osvaldo said:

I noticed a lot of derby fans saying boro are in breach of P&S and it could be why Gibson is claiming against them. I think it’s complete nonsense but might be worth confirming. These Derby fans don’t seem to deal in facts. After all it’s Gibson fault they are in the situation they are in and nothing at all to do with Mel Morris.

Anyway…Here is my understanding:

The EFL adapted the rules last year, following a vote among the league’s 24 clubs, so the two Covid-impacted seasons of 2019/20 and 2020/21 are now taken as an average.

 

So for last year’s P&S submission boro contained the £6m loss from 2018/19, the £2m profit from 2019/20 and the £36m deficit from 2020/21, with the last two figures then packaged as a £17m loss plus a forecast for 2021/22. I got these figures from Swiss ramble on Twitter who seems to have a good grip on clubs financial submissions. 

 

So our submission last year was a total loss of £23million.

 

This year’s 22/23 submission we’ll submit the packaged £17m for 19/20 & 20/21 push whatever profit/loss we make for the 21/22 season. 

 

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

 

In the unlikely event that we post a loss of £20-25m in the next few months we could be in trouble and we’ll certainly need to cash in on assets(Spence) to be good for future submissions. I think it will be unlikely as our wage bill has dropped with some big earners gone and I think we got a few mill for the Braithwaite to barca deal. Could be wrong tho

 

Ps These figures don’t include the allowed deductions like training ground, youth expenses, etc 

you're looking for @DanFromDownSouthif you want to talk figures.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

5 minutes ago, osvaldo said:

I noticed a lot of derby fans saying boro are in breach of P&S and it could be why Gibson is claiming against them. I think it’s complete nonsense but might be worth confirming. These Derby fans don’t seem to deal in facts. After all it’s Gibson fault they are in the situation they are in and nothing at all to do with Mel Morris.

Anyway…Here is my understanding:

The EFL adapted the rules last year, following a vote among the league’s 24 clubs, so the two Covid-impacted seasons of 2019/20 and 2020/21 are now taken as an average.

 

So for last year’s P&S submission boro contained the £6m loss from 2018/19, the £2m profit from 2019/20 and the £36m deficit from 2020/21, with the last two figures then packaged as a £17m loss plus a forecast for 2021/22. I got these figures from Swiss ramble on Twitter who seems to have a good grip on clubs financial submissions. 

 

So our submission last year was a total loss of £23million.

 

This year’s 22/23 submission we’ll submit the packaged £17m for 19/20 & 20/21 push whatever profit/loss we make for the 21/22 season. 

 

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

 

In the unlikely event that we post a loss of £20-25m in the next few months we could be in trouble and we’ll certainly need to cash in on assets(Spence) to be good for future submissions. I think it will be unlikely as our wage bill has dropped with some big earners gone and I think we got a few mill for the Braithwaite to barca deal. Could be wrong tho

 

Ps These figures don’t include the allowed deductions like training ground, youth expenses, etc 

These two posts from Dan should help:

 

[Borodane 6,301]

1 hour ago, osvaldo said:

I noticed a lot of derby fans saying boro are in breach of P&S and it could be why Gibson is claiming against them. I think it’s complete nonsense but might be worth confirming. These Derby fans don’t seem to deal in facts. After all it’s Gibson fault they are in the situation they are in and nothing at all to do with Mel Morris.

Anyway…Here is my understanding:

The EFL adapted the rules last year, following a vote among the league’s 24 clubs, so the two Covid-impacted seasons of 2019/20 and 2020/21 are now taken as an average.

 

So for last year’s P&S submission boro contained the £6m loss from 2018/19, the £2m profit from 2019/20 and the £36m deficit from 2020/21, with the last two figures then packaged as a £17m loss plus a forecast for 2021/22. I got these figures from Swiss ramble on Twitter who seems to have a good grip on clubs financial submissions. 

 

So our submission last year was a total loss of £23million plus forecast.

 

This year’s 22/23 submission we’ll submit the packaged £17m for 19/20 & 20/21 push whatever profit/loss we make for the 21/22 season plus a forecast for 22/23.

 

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

 

In the unlikely event that we post a loss of £20-25m in the next few months we could be in trouble and we’ll certainly need to cash in on assets(Spence) to be good for future submissions. I think it will be unlikely as our wage bill has dropped with some big earners gone and I think we got a few mill for the Braithwaite to barca deal. Could be wrong tho

 

Ps These figures don’t include the allowed deductions like training ground, youth expenses, etc 

I doubt we are close to any FFP breach. If we were there is just no way we would have bought Payero for 5 million and McGree for 2,5 million. McGree especially would be weird. As you say in your final sentence we can still deduct certain expences and I think the academy is something like 2 million a year in itself iirc. Then you have our extra FA Cup income which is probably a couple of million even if we lose to Spurs. If I'm not mistaken we are also seeing a surge in ticket sales since Wilder has took over.

The huge drop in the wage budget should also be a big factor and the minor fees that we have paid apart from the two aforementioned players won't have a severe effect as they are spread out over the coming years. The number of players that we actually owe any significant fees on are very few with Payero and McGree the only two significant player purchases in terms of fees.

[estonpidge 1,449]

there was a table someone posted, showing the before deductions, deductions and loss accounts which put it into persective, can't seem to find it though.

[Naisby 736]

The old saying about glass houses is what I take as my judgement regarding Boro and FFP. I think Gibson is wise and sensible enough and keeps an eye on things enough that he is free and able to stick his head above the parapet on this issue and lob Grenades in every direction knowing he is secure and safe.

Only a true idiot draws attention to themselves on an issue and goes after the FFP police as well as those that break them, while at the same time breaking them themselves and expecting no one to notice or to look.

When FFP was coming in and things were changing we were clearly told we would have the club that we could afford. Every club pushes things financially to the limits they can go and offset we are no different. Imho I expect we will be running close to our limits this period but not over.

[Naisby 736]

8 minutes ago, estonpidge said:

there was a table someone posted, showing the before deductions, deductions and loss accounts which put it into persective, can't seem to find it though.

You only need a swing o meter that shows good and bad clubs, 😀 

[Naisby 736]

We just need to make sure that any auditors that get put on our case to check things by the EFL don’t have a DE post code or call people duck 😅

[osvaldo 36]

Before 20/21 we lost Clayton, Friend, shotton, gestede, assombalonga, Ayala, Fletcher, Randolph and few others that would reduce or wage from £30 to £20mil or lower. We didn’t bring in any big earners during that time. We may have added one or two since(He’s slovenian). I’m predicting our current gates revenue will cover the current squad wages. We will still make a 6-7 million lost due to other expenses which Stevie G will kindly pick up being the legend that he is. I also don’t think we will have any concerns. Next accounts will be interesting(for me anyway)

 

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

The way Dan put it is that we will look a guilty party to those who aren't aware of the averaging between the two years but given that, I'd be surprised if many clubs looked rosey without that average being in place.

[osvaldo 36]

12 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

The way Dan put it is that we will look a guilty party to those who aren't aware of the averaging between the two years but given that, I'd be surprised if many clubs looked rosey without that average being in place.

Yep. It’s not going to look good for most clubs. £17m is our average for the two covid seasons. Take away the estimated £2mill for youth, training ground,etc costs we will be around £15m. If we lose £30 million over these next two submissions we will still be ok.

[ScarBoro 857]

1 hour ago, osvaldo said:

I noticed a lot of derby fans saying boro are in breach of P&S and it could be why Gibson is claiming against them. I think it’s complete nonsense but might be worth confirming. These Derby fans don’t seem to deal in facts. After all it’s Gibson fault they are in the situation they are in and nothing at all to do with Mel Morris.

Anyway…Here is my understanding:

The EFL adapted the rules last year, following a vote among the league’s 24 clubs, so the two Covid-impacted seasons of 2019/20 and 2020/21 are now taken as an average.

 

So for last year’s P&S submission boro contained the £6m loss from 2018/19, the £2m profit from 2019/20 and the £36m deficit from 2020/21, with the last two figures then packaged as a £17m loss plus a forecast for 2021/22. I got these figures from Swiss ramble on Twitter who seems to have a good grip on clubs financial submissions. 

 

So our submission last year was a total loss of £23million plus forecast.

 

This year’s 22/23 submission we’ll submit the packaged £17m for 19/20 & 20/21 push whatever profit/loss we make for the 21/22 season plus a forecast for 22/23.

 

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

 

In the unlikely event that we post a loss of £20-25m in the next few months we could be in trouble and we’ll certainly need to cash in on assets(Spence) to be good for future submissions. I think it will be unlikely as our wage bill has dropped with some big earners gone and I think we got a few mill for the Braithwaite to barca deal. Could be wrong tho

 

Ps These figures don’t include the allowed deductions like training ground, youth expenses, etc 

The accounts for Boro show:-

2017/18 £6m loss ( £1m loss after allowable expenses - see below)

2018/19 £2m profit (£7m profit after allowable expenses)

2019/2020 £36m loss (£31m loss after allowable expenses). However, this will then be reduced further by the Covid losses. I read somewhere they were expected to be around £1m for the likes of Boro that season ( 4 games behind closed doors), so that would give a revised figure of £30m losses for FFP.

2020/2021 Not yet filed (But with £5m expenses deducted from the losses and probably another £5m for Covid losses)

You can deduct off the initial  results allowable expenses for depreciation, academy, woman’s team etc. no idea how much these are per annum, but Swissramble once said they were in region of £7m per year. Say we conservatively use £5m per year to be on safe side and that’s how I get the figures in brackets above. 

The FFP rules normally cover three years accounts. You submit a return in December that shows the prior years, plus an estimate of this year. This is then updated once this years results are actually known. However, because of Covid, the accounts for 2019/2.0 and 2020/21 seasons are being amalgamated. This means any set of FFP figures covering either year, will include 4 years results.

Although Gibson and Bausor will know the results for the cycle ending last June, we can’t calculated them yet because the  2020/2021 results haven’t been published yet ( Due next month). They will include 2017/18, plus 2018/19 - a total of £6m profit, plus half of the average of the last two years.

Assume a loss of £25m last year, less £5m allowable expenses, less £5m Covid losses, =£15m and the £30m for 2019/2020, gives £45m. Average this out and this means FFP losses of £22.5m for those years averaged. Add the £6m profit from the two years before and you get £16.5m losses as a FFP result last year.

Obviously the £25m, I have used as an example is simply my guess. If it was £30m loss last year, then the final £16.5m for FFP would INCREASE  by £2.5m ( half of the  loss increase)

For this year, the 2017/18 drops off, leaving £7m profit for 2018/19, the £22.5m loss for 2019/2020 and 2020/2021 averaged (or whatever that changes to depending on last years result), plus the current year result which we won’t see until March 2023. However, we seem to have a good leeway to make a large loss this year and still be OK.

The worst set of figures could be the 2023 figures, as they will exclude the 2018/19 profit, but include the averaged £22.5m for 2019/2020 + 2020/2021, plus current year and next years losses. Obviously any big profit from sales of such as Spence is likely to radically alter either this year or next years figures. Assuming Spence does go for a large profit, we will get a good idea of whether we are near the limits or not, by the timing of his sale. If it is before 30th June, then it reduces current year losses. A sale on 1st July doesn’t - but does benefit for one more future year

Final point - we probably gained quite a lot from the EFL doing this averaging for 2019/2.0 and 2020/2021 seasons, as even without Covid we would have made big losses in each of those year and probably have had to rein back a lot this year to avoid going over the limits.

I hope I’ve got all that right and it is understandable!

 

[estonpidge 1,449]

@ScarBoro Thanks for that

[Foogle 2,104]

It's interesting that the "grievance" that keeps being reported is that Derby beat us to Waghorn. Which makes it seem like it was all a petty transfer battle that Gibson was bitter about losing.

The way I see it we had issue with them because whilst we cut our cloth and sold 3 of our best players - Traore, Bamford and Gibson - in order to comply with FFP at the same time that Derby accelerated their spending. Either one of those 3 players would've netted us that extra point needed to make the playoffs.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Foogle

[Brunners 7,982]

13 minutes ago, Foogle said:

It's interesting that the "grievance" that keeps being reported is that Derby beat us to Waghorn. Which makes it seem like a petty transfer battle that Gibson was bitter about losing.

The way I see it we had issue with them because we cut our cloth and sold 3 of our best players - Traore, Bamford and Gibson - in order to comply with FFP whilst at the same time that Derby accelerated their spending. Either one of those 3 players would've netted us that extra point needed to make the playoffs.

Them beating us to Waghorn is what *** SG off enough to start looking into it though, that's pretty well known. He knew there was no way they could have legally blown away our wages like they did.