Redcar Rioja 5,979 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 When this is all over the EFL need to appoint an independent body to investigate the entire sorry, sordid detail of the DCFC farce and everyone involved in it including SG and Wycombe along with Quantuma and the EFL themselves. I suspect the findings will fall heavily in favour of Boro and Wycombe and especially SG's tenacity in holding DCFC and the EFL to account. I doubt the EFL would have the balls to do it but they really need looking at in how they conduct themselves in general but specifically how this entire Derby mess was allowed to escalate to the scale it now is during their watch despite red flags from SG. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
JonnyMFC 1,535 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 31 minutes ago, Blanco said: Wow 😮 I presume that the issue is that they didn’t disclose where the funding was coming from? You would have to assume that's the case. Although I seem to remember a report from last season stating that Rooney had paid players wages at one point.....perhaps this is the same thing or linked to that? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ScarBoro 857 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Redcar Rioja said: When this is all over the EFL need to appoint an independent body to investigate the entire sorry, sordid detail of the DCFC farce and everyone involved in it including SG and Wycombe along with Quantuma and the EFL themselves. I suspect the findings will fall heavily in favour of Boro and Wycombe and especially SG's tenacity in holding DCFC and the EFL to account. I doubt the EFL would have the balls to do it but they really need looking at in how they conduct themselves in general but specifically how this entire Derby mess was allowed to escalate to the scale it now is during their watch despite red flags from SG. I wouldn't be too sure. Yes - SG was very tenacious and ethically he was right about the stadium sale and change of accounting rules. However, it turns out neither was against the then existing EFL rules. (that was confirmed by the Independant Tribunal). The only thing they actually got Derby for was the technical error of not saying in the accounts that they had altered the way they amortised players. I don't think you can actually blame the EFL either for not having the rules in place that they have now regarding change of accounting rules and sales of stadia. I guess no one foresaw someone trying it. Gibson was totally right to raise the red flags - but if Morris hadn't run out of money, then Derby would have got away with it - and the stadia sale etc. is irrelevant to the administration mess. Totally agree that EFL need to investigate Quantuma and how an administrator works (depends on what they can do within the existing administration law though - their hands might be tied if insolvency rules overrule anything they can do.) The whole saga is easy to criticise in hindsight, but it all happened because one man looked for and found loopholes in the rules, then took reckless gambles. Difficult to stop someone else doing the same if they can find different loopholes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Redcar Rioja said: When this is all over the EFL need to appoint an independent body to investigate the entire sorry, sordid detail of the DCFC farce and everyone involved in it including SG and Wycombe along with Quantuma and the EFL themselves. I suspect the findings will fall heavily in favour of Boro and Wycombe and especially SG's tenacity in holding DCFC and the EFL to account. I doubt the EFL would have the balls to do it but they really need looking at in how they conduct themselves in general but specifically how this entire Derby mess was allowed to escalate to the scale it now is during their watch despite red flags from SG. That would be the sensible and responsible thing to do...which means there is a cat in hell's chance of it happening. ☹️ Everyone will just happily forget all about it...until the next club gets in trouble... Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 17 minutes ago, ScarBoro said: I wouldn't be too sure. Yes - SG was very tenacious and ethically he was right about the stadium sale and change of accounting rules. However, it turns out neither was against the then existing EFL rules. (that was confirmed by the Independant Tribunal). The only thing they actually got Derby for was the technical error of not saying in the accounts that they had altered the way they amortised players. I don't think you can actually blame the EFL either for not having the rules in place that they have now regarding change of accounting rules and sales of stadia. I guess no one foresaw someone trying it. Gibson was totally right to raise the red flags - but if Morris hadn't run out of money, then Derby would have got away with it - and the stadia sale etc. is irrelevant to the administration mess. Totally agree that EFL need to investigate Quantuma and how an administrator works (depends on what they can do within the existing administration law though - their hands might be tied if insolvency rules overrule anything they can do.) The whole saga is easy to criticise in hindsight, but it all happened because one man looked for and found loopholes in the rules, then took reckless gambles. Difficult to stop someone else doing the same if they can find different loopholes. Thats probably the key bit right there. An independent investigation might help close some loopholes and point to other potential areas of misconduct. Also taking reckless gambles...or even just significant ones, ought to be punishable, if there is a foreseeable risk of them putting clubs in financial jeopardy. Those found guilty should be directly punishable and not allowed to hide behind club accounts. I bet far fewer owners would gamble so freely if they knew they might end up spending time at Her Majesty's pleasure and/or having their assets seized. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ScarBoro 857 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 17 minutes ago, AnglianRed said: Thats probably the key bit right there. An independent investigation might help close some loopholes and point to other potential areas of misconduct. Also taking reckless gambles...or even just significant ones, ought to be punishable, if there is a foreseeable risk of them putting clubs in financial jeopardy. Those found guilty should be directly punishable and not allowed to hide behind club accounts. I bet far fewer owners would gamble so freely if they knew they might end up spending time at Her Majesty's pleasure and/or having their assets seized. You're right - but how do you ever define what is a reckless risk - one mans reckless gamble is another mans calculated risk. Obviously the EFL couldn't put owners in prison, so it would have to be a general law. Most of todays millionaires/billionaires have all taken risks to get where they are today. A lot of them have had failed companies. Put them in prison and no one would risk being self employed and starting up a company. Link to post Share on other sites
SirBrian 18 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Interesting reading and how views are changing over this sorry episode in Derbys history, and yes many questions need answering and with my heart do not wish anyother club to go through this nightmare, which started almost 4 years ago with the embargos and then came along covid so the mental health of some of the fans has not been good over this period. Sports minister said a few months ago that he wants a regulater in place asap for EFL and PL, hopefully for the start of the season for the EFL, The enquiry cannot be conducted by the EFL, it must be led by the goverment and sure it will be for the Derbyshie MPs will not let it lie, Dame Margret Beckett MP tweeted some months ago that she was demanding a meeting next day with the EFL for they had lied to her. 4.30 today Pauline Latham MP, Derbyshire MP leads a debate in Parliament on Derby County , as i challenge the Sports Minister. Link to post Share on other sites
ScarBoro 857 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, SirBrian said: Interesting reading and how views are changing over this sorry episode in Derbys history, and yes many questions need answering and with my heart do not wish anyother club to go through this nightmare, which started almost 4 years ago with the embargos and then came along covid so the mental health of some of the fans has not been good over this period. Sports minister said a few months ago that he wants a regulater in place asap for EFL and PL, hopefully for the start of the season for the EFL, The enquiry cannot be conducted by the EFL, it must be led by the goverment and sure it will be for the Derbyshie MPs will not let it lie, Dame Margret Beckett MP tweeted some months ago that she was demanding a meeting next day with the EFL for they had lied to her. 4.30 today Pauline Latham MP, Derbyshire MP leads a debate in Parliament on Derby County , as i challenge the Sports Minister. A regulator sounds a good idea on the face of it. What exactly will one achieve though? How wide will their remit be? And what happens when they are pressured politically to influence the EFL to bring in new rules that most fans don’t want? For sure it will interfere in the workings of the sport, but how much of that will be beneficial and how much will it be to act as a sop to public opinion. I really doubt how much good a political appointment will do - the next non conservative government will probably want to replace any one the Tories appoint and the league will simply be caught between different political opinions. It’s already being politicised - all the Derbyshire MPs suddenly have a huge interest in football and the woes of Derby when a year ago practically all of them had no interest whatsoever in the game. That’s the real reason they are calling for a regulator - it’s playing to the gallery The administrator has had to follow the insolvency law - and that was formulated by parliament, so a regulator won’t help there. I bet now that any enquiry will produce sweet FA. Even if Quantuma have been totally inefficient and lax, it would be almost certain they have done nothing they can be prosecuted for, or even reprimanded. Link to post Share on other sites
SirBrian 18 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, ScarBoro said: A regulator sounds a good idea on the face of it. What exactly will one achieve though? How wide will their remit be? And what happens when they are pressured politically to influence the EFL to bring in new rules that most fans don’t want? For sure it will interfere in the workings of the sport, but how much of that will be beneficial and how much will it be to act as a sop to public opinion. I really doubt how much good a political appointment will do - the next non conservative government will probably want to replace any one the Tories appoint and the league will simply be caught between different political opinions. It’s already being politicised - all the Derbyshire MPs suddenly have a huge interest in football and the woes of Derby when a year ago practically all of them had no interest whatsoever in the game. That’s the real reason they are calling for a regulator - it’s playing to the gallery The administrator has had to follow the insolvency law - and that was formulated by parliament, so a regulator won’t help there. I bet now that any enquiry will produce sweet FA. Even if Quantuma have been totally inefficient and lax, it would be almost certain they have done nothing they can be prosecuted for, or even reprimanded. Pauline is a long standing season ticket holder, and many of the MPs have been very active behind the scenes from the start of admin, will be interesting to hear what she says in parliament later. Link to post Share on other sites
AnglianRed 6,320 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, ScarBoro said: You're right - but how do you ever define what is a reckless risk - one mans reckless gamble is another mans calculated risk. Obviously the EFL couldn't put owners in prison, so it would have to be a general law. Most of todays millionaires/billionaires have all taken risks to get where they are today. A lot of them have had failed companies. Put them in prison and no one would risk being self employed and starting up a company. Well I'm no financial expert, but something along the lines of leaving the club in more debt than it can service...effectively putting it in a debt spiral, or at risk of administration. Shouldn't be that hard to come up with some suitable wording to cover those sort of situations. The EFL can't put owners in prison, but there ought to be a mechanism by which they can take them to court for being in breach of owners' rules, the FFP regs...whatever. Yes businessmen often have a lot of failed ventures, but in those cases they can be directly held accountable...unlike with football clubs. The business goes bust, they lose a load of money and have to start over. In the case of football clubs they get to lump their debts onto the club and walk away scot free, pretty much. I dunno about you but I find it infuriating... Link to post Share on other sites
ScarBoro 857 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 21 minutes ago, AnglianRed said: Well I'm no financial expert, but something along the lines of leaving the club in more debt than it can service...effectively putting it in a debt spiral, or at risk of administration. Shouldn't be that hard to come up with some suitable wording to cover those sort of situations. There’s a real element of luck there though isn’t there? A club like Burnley could go from Premier League to division 1 in 2 seasons and it would be financially ruinous, but does that mean they have to allow for that and not spend while in the Premier League, just in case it happens? Do you have to allow for interest base rate going up from 0.5% to say 5%, even though it seems very unlikely? With the smaller clubs an owner can be happily funding the club then have a disaster at his other businesses and be unable to pump money in to the club. you would have to have done fairly severe rule changes, and the chances of getting clubs to vote for them would be pretty slim. 35 minutes ago, AnglianRed said: The EFL can't put owners in prison, but there ought to be a mechanism by which they can take them to court for being in breach of owners' rules, the FFP regs...whatever... They could do that if clubs voted for it, but would you get the majority needed - someone like Gibson might support it, but a lot of owners would be too worried that it could happen to them sometime? 38 minutes ago, AnglianRed said: .Yes businessmen often have a lot of failed ventures, but in those cases they can be directly held accountable...unlike with football clubs. The business goes bust, they lose a load of money and have to start over. In the case of football clubs they get to lump their debts onto the club and walk away scot free, pretty much. I dunno about you but I find it infuriating... Don’t actually think there’s any difference. The fact is that a football club is a limited company, just like any other (in law). Lots of businessmen have a company that fails and they put in a bid and buy it off the administrator for a song and keep going. At least with football that can’t happen as easily due to the rule requiring full payment ot football creditors. It’s also exceptional for a company director to be taken to court, so unless they’ve guaranteed a lot of the debt they can often walk scot free, just like club owners. I really agree with what you’d like to see, just think there are an awful lot of obstacles in the way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Bosco's Tuft 941 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 4 hours ago, SirBrian said: mental health of some of the fans has not been good over this period. With respect, you can't expect the EFL to consider every fans mental health when making rules. Or there would be no relegation, losing cup finalists, playoff failures, selling of top players, last minute winners, and so on. All if these can effect fans mental health to different degrees. Link to post Share on other sites
Old Codger 3,064 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 Still no agreement... and one week to get a team together before the first friendly, not the sort of preparation that would inspire me to sign on. Can see a few clubs wanting money up front in any cash deals. Do not want to see them fold but if Clowes is still trying to get a better deal, then something needs to be done about him and can't see EFL waiting much longer Link to post Share on other sites
Blanco 4,917 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 26 minutes ago, Old Codger said: Still no agreement... and one week to get a team together before the first friendly, not the sort of preparation that would inspire me to sign on. Can see a few clubs wanting money up front in any cash deals. Do not want to see them fold but if Clowes is still trying to get a better deal, then something needs to be done about him and can't see EFL waiting much longer He is a developer. He has the ground. He couldn’t give a toss about any of the rest of it. They are f***ed Link to post Share on other sites
Old Codger 3,064 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 If that is his true motivation, I hope the council find some medieval law saying it can only be used for football or grazing sheep. Any applications for planning permission that don't include a retractable roof should be blocked. Not sure if it is in a good area for housing so lets see the "concerned MP's" look after the fans for once Link to post Share on other sites
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