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Boro v Tottenham Hotspur (FA Cup) 1-0 (Coburn)


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3 minutes ago, Brunners said:

Because I'm bored of you posting the same *** in every thread when it comes to either of those players. We get it, you don't like that people had different opinions previously. 

Guess what CT, opinions can change. People can say things previously that maybe they don't believe now - or, shock horror, people can say and believe things that disagree with you.

You don't need to make some shitty comment about it every single *** time someone says something nice about them.

It was funny the first couple times you did it. Now we're up to post 38567 saying basically the same smarmy thing, it's tiring.

And? 

Once again, what's it got to do with you?  You don't have to read anything I post mate.

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Coburn will win it. 

I'd still rather keep squad turnover to a minimum though, if we can get by just selling Spence then that would absolutely be my favoured option.

Honestly think that was near enough a 10/10 from Howson tonight, he was absolutely excellent.

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I don't think our defence as a whole has been that bad once this season, and the stats would appear to back that up. However, I do think specific players (most recently Lumley and Dijksteel) have committed some unnecessary howlers. That's immensely frustrating in the moment, but it doesn't mean the team is gash defensively all, most or even some of the time. How many Championship defences would you swap ours for?

On a tangential note, some people need to stop judging the collective mood of this forum based on three or four pages of mid-MDT posts submitted in the moments after someone cocks up at the back. And some other people need to stop squabbling so much, cos it's f**king with my chi.

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Just now, Brunners said:

it's not an isolated mistake if it keeps happening Will. 

About once a game Lumley will kick the ball along the floor straight up the middle of the pitch.
About once a game Howson will get caught with the ball deep in our own half for some stupid reason.
Not always every game but Dijksteel will usually get himself into trouble at least once.
More often than not we'll have an air kick at an inopportune time, or we'll fire a clearance straight up into the air instead of away.

They are all examples of bad defending. 

Maybe a kinder way of saying it is our defence is respectable but prone to regular mistakes. You're right, we're not conceding 10 chances a game, but we do stuff defensively every game that makes me wince. 

In fact, this Spurs game was the first game in a very long time that our defence has been pretty much perfect, bar that one rush of blood Lumley had in the first half. Beside that I can't really think of any of the usual mistakes I've seen us make recently.

Lumley's is an example of bad goalkeeping, he isn't a defender and he's not doing any defending when he's kicking the ball out.

Howson's again isn't bad defending, he isn't a defender and getting caught on the ball in midfield isn't defending.

By all means they are both mistakes that we ideally shouldn't be making, but neither are poor defending, mainly because neither thing is defending and also because neither player is a defender.

To an extent we have to accept that with Wilder's system will come more pressure on the defence which will lead to more individual mistakes, certainly in the shorter term. Our defenders are being asked to play the ball infinitely more than they did under Warnock, Lumley is playing a role he's never had to before, both will take time to adapt and may not make the cut. However, to be limiting teams to a couple of chances a game that come almost always from individual mistakes and not anything fundamentally wrong with our defence only 5 months into Wilder's tenure is bloody good in my opinion. Wilder seems pretty happy to continue along the way we're going too. 

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10 minutes ago, Brunners said:

it's not an isolated mistake if it keeps happening Will. 

About once a game Lumley will kick the ball along the floor straight up the middle of the pitch.
About once a game Howson will get caught with the ball deep in our own half for some stupid reason.
Not always every game but Dijksteel will usually get himself into trouble at least once.
More often than not we'll have an air kick at an inopportune time, or we'll fire a clearance straight up into the air instead of away.

They are all examples of bad defending. 

Maybe a kinder way of saying it is our defence is respectable but prone to regular mistakes. You're right, we're not conceding 10 chances a game, but we do stuff defensively every game that makes me wince. 

In fact, this Spurs game was the first game in a very long time that our defence has been pretty much perfect, bar that one rush of blood Lumley had in the first half. Beside that I can't really think of any of the usual mistakes I've seen us make recently.

image.thumb.png.14615b662265797e1bf01d00df93335c.png

You did post this a few days ago yeah? 

We limit opposition teams to low quality shots.  We also limit the opposition to one of the fewest shot totals in the league, I believe we are 4th best in that regard.  We have one of the best defensive records in the league, and we have done all season long.  I think we've got one of the higher numbers of clean sheets but I'm going to have to check on it.  What part of all of that reflects an often rubbish defence? 

You mentioned the West Brom game, and the goal we conceded, which was poor defending no question I agree, but what were the other examples of poor defending from that game?  I can't remember West Brom doing much of anything against us?  I think there's a difference between an instance of poor defending, and being poor at defending overall.  We were bad against Barnsley in just about every aspect of our game, it was a bad performance, but that doesn't mean that we are therefore bad, it was just one bad game.  You talk about nuance but where is the ability to distinguish between those two things? 

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10 minutes ago, RiseAgainst said:

I don't think our defence as a whole has been that bad once this season, and the stats would appear to back that up. However, I do think specific players (most recently Lumley and Dijksteel) have committed some unnecessary howlers. That's immensely frustrating in the moment, but it doesn't mean the team is gash defensively all, most or even some of the time. How many Championship defences would you swap ours for?

On a tangential note, some people need to stop judging the collective mood of this forum based on three or four pages of mid-MDT posts submitted in the moments after someone cocks up at the back. And some other people need to stop squabbling so much, cos it's f**king with my chi.

Did you miss off the p and the s at the end there?

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Prior to the Bristol game we had the fourth least goals conceded against which whilst not the best is far from disastrous. Some of the goals we have conceded have been howlers like McNair's air kick at Blackburn but then we scored against Forest from a Keeper/Defender blunder and there were a few "fortunate" goals for us against Derby whose form had been pretty good until we burst their bubble.

If we had a left footed CB McNair's air kick probably wouldn't have happened. If Lumley played every game like he did against Spurs we would probably have two or three less goals conceded. If Fry didn't get injured earlier in the season, if Dijksteel didn't have the occasional brain f4rt we wouldn't have conceded goal, A, B or C somewhere, sometime.

If only Gerard didn't have that famous brain f4rt all those seasons ago Liverpool could have won the Premiership. All goals are as a result of a defender being beaten in the air, out wide, slipping or a Keeper poorly positioned. Currently Spurs players are blaming Son for being cr4p on the night, Roy Keane thinks it was all down to Kane while Jason Cundy believes it's all Conte's fault for not showing enough emotion. Where there's a goal there's a blame and when there is a defeat there is loads of blame!

Take a look at the table for goals conceded, had it not been for those three Bristol goals last Saturday it would look a lot better for Boro. Even considering that, there are only two or three goals at most between us and third, that can change in a weekend as it did to us last Saturday. Yes we can improve it but not by much, only Bournemouth and Fulham are noticeably better than us and the rest of the chasing pack. I don't think it realistic at this stage to expect us to have conceded less goals than either of those two.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/middlesbrough/league-table/conceded

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22 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

image.thumb.png.14615b662265797e1bf01d00df93335c.png

You did post this a few days ago yeah? 

We limit opposition teams to low quality shots.  We also limit the opposition to one of the fewest shot totals in the league, I believe we are 4th best in that regard.  We have one of the best defensive records in the league, and we have done all season long.  I think we've got one of the higher numbers of clean sheets but I'm going to have to check on it.  What part of all of that reflects an often rubbish defence? 

You mentioned the West Brom game, and the goal we conceded, which was poor defending no question I agree, but what were the other examples of poor defending from that game?  I can't remember West Brom doing much of anything against us?  I think there's a difference between an instance of poor defending, and being poor at defending overall.  We were bad against Barnsley in just about every aspect of our game, it was a bad performance, but that doesn't mean that we are therefore bad, it was just one bad game.  You talk about nuance but where is the ability to distinguish between those two things? 

Okay, I agree I didn't express my point very well, I used inaccurate phrasing, that is my fault and I apologise.

I don't think we are bad defensively all game every game. I do think our defence has the unfortunate ability to implode on itself at any minute, which shows in the goals we concede.

Barnsley, West Brom, Bristol City, QPR, Blackburn all feature goals conceded that are caused directly because of rank defending on our part, whether that's awful marking, botched clearances or something else. These are tangible instances in which I consider our defending rubbish. There are usually a few examples of this a game, although we get away with a lot of them.

Squeaky bum time is often squeaky bum time because we never look particularly confident when defending the lead at the end of a game IMO.

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I do wonder if there's an element of people being used to watching us under Karanka, and then Pulis, where we were quite rigid, and I think it would be fair to say, defensively focused?  Probably say the same about Warnock as well.  Wilder is trying to turn us into something different, and maybe we aren't all that used to it?

The third goal at Barnsley was just silly but it doesn't feel like something we'd repeat 10 times a season, otherwise I would then see it as a more general problem.  The QPR game that you mentioned, I actually thought our issue there was more in midfield than defence.  I would also add that it was one of the most enjoyable games I've seen Boro involved in for years, it was a proper game of football, and we were the team on top.  The West Brom goal was a bit of a clanger as well but it's not like they were opening us up at will.  At Bristol City, the first goal was as a result of Tavernier slipping wasn't it?  The second goal was just a pretty good finish from what I remember?  The air kick from McNair against Blackburn was obviously ridiculous like but to me that is in individual piece of stupidity rather than a failure of the defensive unit.

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38 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I do wonder if there's an element of people being used to watching us under Karanka, and then Pulis, where we were quite rigid, and I think it would be fair to say, defensively focused?  Probably say the same about Warnock as well.  Wilder is trying to turn us into something different, and maybe we aren't all that used to it?

The third goal at Barnsley was just silly but it doesn't feel like something we'd repeat 10 times a season, otherwise I would then see it as a more general problem.  The QPR game that you mentioned, I actually thought our issue there was more in midfield than defence.  I would also add that it was one of the most enjoyable games I've seen Boro involved in for years, it was a proper game of football, and we were the team on top.  The West Brom goal was a bit of a clanger as well but it's not like they were opening us up at will.  At Bristol City, the first goal was as a result of Tavernier slipping wasn't it?  The second goal was just a pretty good finish from what I remember?  The air kick from McNair against Blackburn was obviously ridiculous like but to me that is in individual piece of stupidity rather than a failure of the defensive unit.

I almost made this point earlier, it's certainly pertinent to Karanka and Pulis. We went into games almost knowing we wouldn't concede because the defence was so stout and they weren't asked to do much. That was a nice feeling to have, but it doesn't mesh with playing the attacking football that all of us say we want to see, if we want to play on the front foot (and certainly if we want to play a system where 2 of the 3 CB's are valued as much for their ability going forwards as they are defensively) then we have to accept that more errors will happen. That's not bad defending, it's errors caused by having a much smaller margin for error due to the way we play.

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