Humpty 3,260 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 Fry’s been at fault for no goals. Lenihan has been at fault for 4 goals. I’d say that’s the more pertinent stat for a defender. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Will 2,958 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 28 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: No, you wouldn't. Fry had 60% passing accuracy, lenihan had 84%. That's the gulf between the two in that particular statistic and it happens to be one our manager rates very highly. If you think you can put together a modern, possession based team and still have old school defenders with very basic passing skills I invite you to take your manager badges and work your way up - for now, I think wilder should have our full backing until he shows he's not up to it over an extended period of time - he's no where near that point yet, despite the not great start and the not great end to last season. Like I say, 10-15 games, I'm confident that we'll see if he's right or not. In this one game. As CT pointed out earlier in the thread, Fry actually had a much better passing accuracy over the course of last season than Lenihan did (76.6% to Lenihan's 65.8%). Over the course of their careers their passing accuracy is extremely similar (70.6% for Fry, 71.2% for Lenihan). So let's stop this ridiculous notion than Lenihan is like a prime Beckenbauer compared to Fry, shall we? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,934 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Will said: In this one game. As CT pointed out earlier in the thread, Fry actually had a much better passing accuracy over the course of last season than Lenihan did (76.6% to Lenihan's 65.8%). Over the course of their careers their passing accuracy is extremely similar (70.6% for Fry, 71.2% for Lenihan). So let's stop this ridiculous notion than Lenihan is like a prime Beckenbauer compared to Fry, shall we? What matters is what each player does in this system, not what came before. If wilder thinks lenihan fits the system better than fry then I'm happy to go with it until he's proven wrong. Like I said, I love fry and certainly don't want us to lose him, but wilder has always build extremely solid sides defensively so the man knows what he's doing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar Colin 607 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 1 hour ago, AllBoro10 said: Bit of time and patience and a settled back should do the trick. Physically he can't cope with the amount of space he has to cover in this system even the small amount of space the lad moved away from him in before he crossed for the ball for the OG seemed like an acre cos he was left for dead. Unless we give him more protection I don't think much will change. I'm not sure patience is going to help him that much if we carry on playing as we do. He's costing us points every game so far I'm not sure how long he can be staying in the team if you have a good defender ready to come in. Link to post Share on other sites
chickenlunch 315 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 (edited) Fry is too injury prone imo, feels like he's always either out or coming back from injury. I'm sure someone will come back saying well the stats say he played 3624 minutes last season which is 563 minutes over the national average, but that's the way it feels to me. Just has he gets a run in the team it seems like he's out for a couple of weeks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,934 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, chickenlunch said: Fry is too injury prone imo, feels like he's always either out or coming back from injury. I'm sure someone will come back saying well the stats say he played 3624 minutes last season which is 563 minutes over the national average, but that's the way it feels to me. Just has he gets a run in the team it seems like he's out for a couple of weeks. Those pesky facts always getting in the way of feelings Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar Colin 607 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 57 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: No, you wouldn't. Fry had 60% passing accuracy, lenihan had 84%. That's the gulf between the two in that particular statistic and it happens to be one our manager rates very highly. If you think you can put together a modern, possession based team and still have old school defenders with very basic passing skills I invite you to take your manager badges and work your way up - for now, I think wilder should have our full backing until he shows he's not up to it over an extended period of time - he's no where near that point yet, despite the not great start and the not great end to last season. Like I say, 10-15 games, I'm confident that we'll see if he's right or not. I get your point about needing good passing throughout the team and although Frys isn't the best it's not terrible either but passing the ball about from the back 20% better won't make up for direct fault in 3 goals and a red card from shocking defending over 3 games. I don't see how time will help Lenihan he doesn't have the pace and he doesn't have the positioning knowledge to make up for it. He's a ball winning cb who wants to attack the ball who needs covering defenders but in our system he's got to be the cover and he's struggling. Fry did a good job and a much under appreciated job in the middle of that defence last season looking after that space when the channels are being exploited its a very difficult position to play and I think we are seeing that now someone else is having a go and I had a feeling it would be the case in pre season. Link to post Share on other sites
Redcar Rioja 5,974 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 Our defence is in a state of flux at the minute and for any defender building a relationship and with it understanding with your fellow defenders is paramount to a tight, effective and solid defence. Lenihan has experience and is a great talker and leader but I have to admit to being a little underwhelmed to date but in balance I have to accept that Wilder hasn't got his established back three in place. Arguably until he does there is a strong argument that Dijksteel, Fry and McNair should have been maintained but with injuries and suspension that wasn't possible. It is very clear that we need a left sided CB and hopefully very soon. Even then it will take a while to build up trust and understanding with team mates so we may have to put up with some farcical defensive plays for the next few weeks. I think Lenihan is better than we have seen or at least I hope because he certainly looked a lot better at Blackburn. I was surprised at Fry being hooked at half time and presumed it was a niggle plus the card. I think it's clear that Wilder wants players to do what he wants and if they don't there is no room for sentiment from him. It's harsh and tough management and I'm not sure I am overly enamoured or buy into it but it's his job and he is in the seat so we have to get on with it until such times when it really bites him in the rear end. There have been a few things about him that have triggered a little concern in me but I guess no more or worse than Karanka so I guess the end result will be how he is ultimately judged. Out of interest here is an analysis which surprised me as I thought Steffen was a little bit flappy in parts and Lenihan wasn't that good but it's all about opinions. https://the72.co.uk/2022/08/15/whoscoreds-top-5-performers-in-the-hard-fought-draw-between-middlesbrough-and-sheffield-united/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Humpty 3,260 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 Great demonstration of how misleading stats can be! Link to post Share on other sites
Smokedsalmon 1,247 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 The issue with our defence is not down to the individual quality of the players, but the system. 1) There is no midfield cover. McGree struggles to get back, Howson leaves his position vacant constantly. Way too often opposition midfielders have a free run directly through the final third of the pitch and at our defence. Lenihan is not good enough to cover this by himself and is getting dragged all over the place (not really his fault). 2) The wing backs are pretty poor defenders. Giles and Jones are great going forwards, but other than their pace, they struggle defensively with their positioning and tackling (Jones goes to ground constantly and misses the tackle). They are both better suited to being out and out wide men. You can see Giles getting absolutely knackered after about 60 minutes with the work he has to go through - I think that (especially in the heat yesterday) is probably why he scores the own-goal. Tired swing of the boot. 3) We ask the wide centre backs to step up into midfield. Bola and Dijksteel are encouraged to take up the same sort of positions you'd expect of a full back. We leave ourselves wide open for the counter and frequently find ourselves in 2v2 defensive situations (because the midfield *cough Howson* never covers the position properly), which is never ideal. 4) We are very vulnerable to the press. None of our back line, or midfield, are technically & mentally competent enough at receiving the ball under pressure and playing through the lines. Basic stuff, really. We don't play the ball through tight gaps and angles; it's always in front of the player and into feet. The result of this is that we end up going long, giving it away, and inviting further pressure. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
chickenlunch 315 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 18 minutes ago, Neverbefore said: Those pesky facts always getting in the way of feelings stats on their way to ruining football imo - xg my *** 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Bosco's Tuft 941 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 31 minutes ago, chickenlunch said: stats on their way to ruining football imo - xg my *** Interpretation of xg is one thing. But to ignore the fact that Fry has played 80% of our games over the last 4 seasons because you feel like he is always injured is another thing altogether. A daft thing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
chickenlunch 315 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bosco's Tuft said: Interpretation of xg is one thing. But to ignore the fact that Fry has played 80% of our games over the last 4 seasons because you feel like he is always injured is another thing altogether. A daft thing. well.. first hit on google showed he missed 10 games last season with injury.. then you have to factor in the games it takes for him to get back up to speed.. maybe 5/6? I didn't intend on this becoming a big debate btw, but just stating a vibe. Feels like the lanky bugger gets injured a little than other players. I also get the feeling you made up that 80% stat... but that's just a feeling I've got, not backed up with facts. Link to post Share on other sites
wilsoncgp 9,279 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 Got to experience MFC hospitality yesterday through my boss which was great but the viewing angle of the pitch makes it quite difficult to judge the shape of the team. I honestly thought Lenihan played better than Fry in the central position yesterday though, after Fry went off. Maybe it was just because Lenihan wasn't doing as good a job at LCB than he does at CB or, as per the above, not really having a great view of the shape (or the second goal for them), haven't watched the goals back. Maybe Lenihan could/should have blocked the first goal? Steffen certainly seemed to get down late, reminded me a bit of Sam Gallagher at Blackburn last season. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Neverbefore 10,934 Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 Honeslty thought that first goal was just individual brilliance from berge. He was pushed out past the post by the defender, going away from the goal so he shouldn't really be able to score from there, he just put it right in the corner. Steffen probably wasn't expecting it to go to the one spot where it would sneak in (normally shots from there will go to the near post) so I don't really blame him either. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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