53 minutes ago, OldManGravz said:

I mean, Wheater scored more goals for Bolton than Jay Jay Okocha did, so that's something

Wheater was called up to the England squad and played regularly in the premier league. I'd say he'd be pretty happy with what he achieved in relation to his early promise and ability.

16 hours ago, Changing Times said:

He didn't let his man go for the goal.  He tried to play him offside when the ball never went to him, and did a weird little jump forward for some reason.  I'm not trying to be pedantic there but I do think they are different things.  He knew where the player was, he was originally in the perfect place to defend him, but he made a decision to do something else. I actually understand his thinking to an extent because if the ball had been played direct to Lowe he'd have been offside.  But once the ball isn't played forward he has to get back with his man, which he didn't.  If it was anyone else they'd be getting blasted - imagine McNair doing that for example, this thread would be all over him for it.  If he's with his man, which he should be, I don't think they score at all.

Jones was running back, the lad was well ahead of him.  If he's getting blamed for not sprinting 40/50 yards back then with respect I don't think it's unreasonable to place the blame on the lad marking Lowe, who was right next to him seconds before he scored, and in the perfect position to deal with him.

This is 5 seconds before the goal.  Lowe ends up completely unmarked on the edge of our six yard box.  It's entirely VDB's fault, just as it would be Fry's fault if he was marking him and did the same thing, or McNair, Lenihan, Clarke.  There is no good reason at all for him to be free so close to our goal from this position.  None.

I’ve noticed in a lot of goals down our right you have a dig at anyone who points out Jones could have done more. I watched the goal again after reading this post and jones didn’t have to ‘sprint 40-50 yards’ at all, he ran casually and easily got to their wide player before the cross came in. 
 

That said I don’t think a single individual into blame tbh, once again it’s a mix of multiple players doing some half assed no man’s land defending. 
 

The 2 cms for a start both back off the ball carrier and seem to be marking the same player. 1 of them should be going towards the ball and making things difficult for the player in possession.

The next player in no man’s land isn’t even Jones it’s Dijksteel, at the point the cross comes in he’s about 6 yards away from the crosser just kinda stood on his own in a position to do absolutely nothing. Once again we fail to make it difficult for the guy in possession. 
 

On first viewing I actually thought the goal was the result of a pretty good cross that’s hard to defend against, the cbs are acting like they don’t know who should be picking the goal scorer up, again both of them in no mans land. I do think they were done by the cross though.

Ultimately Imo the blame lies at the midfield, when the ball comes back to their midfielder who plays in the wide man, he has time to control it, kind of fakes to play a pass, gets his head up quick and finally then plays the pass. He should never be allowed that much time on the ball in that area and even he seems surprised.
 

In a karanka team that goal 100% doesnt happen bc that midfielder is crunched the second he gets the ball under control. Even if the ball did get out to their wide man, a bit of pressure and he rushes the cross and it’s easier for the cbs to defend.

We are to stand off, we give players to much time to see runs, make decisions and position their body’s to hit the ball properly. It’s annoying because you don’t have to be some world class player to make things difficult for a guy with the ball. 
 

To me it all just looks like confusion and waiting for someone else to do what needs doing because none of them know who should be doing what needs doing. You could also say it’s a communication issue aswell, like the players don’t seem to be fully aware what’s going on around them. Prime example of McNair who got beat in the air by Daniel James, he clearly had no idea he was there.

2 hours ago, LinoJo3 said:

I’ve noticed in a lot of goals down our right you have a dig at anyone who points out Jones could have done more. I watched the goal again after reading this post and jones didn’t have to ‘sprint 40-50 yards’ at all, he ran casually and easily got to their wide player before the cross came in. 
 

That said I don’t think a single individual into blame tbh, once again it’s a mix of multiple players doing some half assed no man’s land defending. 
 

The 2 cms for a start both back off the ball carrier and seem to be marking the same player. 1 of them should be going towards the ball and making things difficult for the player in possession.

The next player in no man’s land isn’t even Jones it’s Dijksteel, at the point the cross comes in he’s about 6 yards away from the crosser just kinda stood on his own in a position to do absolutely nothing. Once again we fail to make it difficult for the guy in possession. 
 

On first viewing I actually thought the goal was the result of a pretty good cross that’s hard to defend against, the cbs are acting like they don’t know who should be picking the goal scorer up, again both of them in no mans land. I do think they were done by the cross though.

Ultimately Imo the blame lies at the midfield, when the ball comes back to their midfielder who plays in the wide man, he has time to control it, kind of fakes to play a pass, gets his head up quick and finally then plays the pass. He should never be allowed that much time on the ball in that area and even he seems surprised.
 

In a karanka team that goal 100% doesnt happen bc that midfielder is crunched the second he gets the ball under control. Even if the ball did get out to their wide man, a bit of pressure and he rushes the cross and it’s easier for the cbs to defend.

We are to stand off, we give players to much time to see runs, make decisions and position their body’s to hit the ball properly. It’s annoying because you don’t have to be some world class player to make things difficult for a guy with the ball. 
 

To me it all just looks like confusion and waiting for someone else to do what needs doing because none of them know who should be doing what needs doing. You could also say it’s a communication issue aswell, like the players don’t seem to be fully aware what’s going on around them. Prime example of McNair who got beat in the air by Daniel James, he clearly had no idea he was there.

I said about sprinting 40/50 yards because of where the move begins from, and where Jones is when it begins, which is 20 yards inside their half.  If he immediately goes backwards then it might not be required but he actually goes forwards to try and close the ball down, and then turns and begins to run back.  I was talking about him getting into position to stop the cross, which he clearly doesn't manage, and needing to run more quickly to do that. He just reaches their player on the wrong side of him as he crosses, which is no use at all.  Originally the man is Dijksteel's and Jones isn't sprinting back because he can see Dijksteel has him, then when Dijksteel tucks inside Jones quickens his pace but by then it's too late.  My issue with him being blamed is that VDB is stood next to the goalscorer but then jumps forwards and ends up yards away from him, and we have an unmarked player on the edge of our six yard box.  The cross is irrelevant as there shouldn't be any player unmarked in that position at all, that's just bad defending.  The fact that it's VDB and we all like him doesn't change that he screwed up.  I don't see it as a big deal other than people seemingly going out of their way not to blame the lad when it's clearly down to him.

6 hours ago, Humpty said:

Wheater was called up to the England squad and played regularly in the premier league. I'd say he'd be pretty happy with what he achieved in relation to his early promise and ability.

I think that's my point though, he was on the fringes of the England squad but then went backwards.  He had a solid career but not as good as the early potential suggested it could be.

3 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I said about sprinting 40/50 yards because of where the move begins from, and where Jones is when it begins, which is 20 yards inside their half.  If he immediately goes backwards then it might not be required but he actually goes forwards to try and close the ball down, and then turns and begins to run back.  I was talking about him getting into position to stop the cross, which he clearly doesn't manage, and needing to run more quickly to do that. He just reaches their player on the wrong side of him as he crosses, which is no use at all.  Originally the man is Dijksteel's and Jones isn't sprinting back because he can see Dijksteel has him, then when Dijksteel tucks inside Jones quickens his pace but by then it's too late.  My issue with him being blamed is that VDB is stood next to the goalscorer but then jumps forwards and ends up yards away from him, and we have an unmarked player on the edge of our six yard box.  The cross is irrelevant as there shouldn't be any player unmarked in that position at all, that's just bad defending.  The fact that it's VDB and we all like him doesn't change that he screwed up.  I don't see it as a big deal other than people seemingly going out of their way not to blame the lad when it's clearly down to him.

How is the cross irrelevant lmao, if the cross doesn’t happen then there’s no goal! The blame lies almost entirely with the amount of time the midfielder had to pick out the winger. Even when the winger did have the ball Jones and Dijksteel made feeble attempts to stop the cross, to me it looks like Dijksteel could easily have cut off the passing line or at least tried. I’m not saying the cbs are blameless, I have no idea what either of them were trying to achieve. Fry was running towards the stand waving his arm and VDB made no attempt to get in front of the forward. Though as a cb once a forward gets a run on you it’s hard to stop if the delivery is good which it was.

15 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

How is the cross irrelevant lmao, if the cross doesn’t happen then there’s no goal! The blame lies almost entirely with the amount of time the midfielder had to pick out the winger. Even when the winger did have the ball Jones and Dijksteel made feeble attempts to stop the cross, to me it looks like Dijksteel could easily have cut off the passing line or at least tried. I’m not saying the cbs are blameless, I have no idea what either of them were trying to achieve. Fry was running towards the stand waving his arm and VDB made no attempt to get in front of the forward. Though as a cb once a forward gets a run on you it’s hard to stop if the delivery is good which it was.

I said the cross is irrelevant because there should never be a player unmarked on the edge of your six yard box.  Crosses come into the area all the time, you can defend them by having people there, and we didn't.  Lowe didn't get the run on VDB please watch the replay again.  VDB is goal side of him but then he moves forward to try and play Lowe offside but there's no actual pass to him so he can't be.  VDB gets himself out of position, Lowe doesn't use some clever movement to get away from him.  It's VDB's fault, I genuinely can't work out why anyone thinks otherwise. 

This

and this

shouldn't become this

Edited December 18, 20232 yr by Changing Times

27 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I said the cross is irrelevant because there should never be a player unmarked on the edge of your six yard box.  Crosses come into the area all the time, you can defend them by having people there, and we didn't.  Lowe didn't get the run on VDB please watch the replay again.  VDB is goal side of him but then he moves forward to try and play Lowe offside but there's no actual pass to him so he can't be.  VDB gets himself out of position, Lowe doesn't use some clever movement to get away from him.  It's VDB's fault, I genuinely can't work out why anyone thinks otherwise. 

This

and this

shouldn't become this

I’m not saying they’re blameless I literally said I have no idea what they’re trying to achieve. Doesn’t change my opinion though that the winger should never have got the ball in the first place.