BORO v Coventry City 1-3 (Coburn)

[AnglianRed 7,883 18.1k]

1 hour ago, Bruce said:

Same here except for one thing which is that Carrick has shown himself unwilling to rotate or rest players even when he has a full squad to pick from. Although he talks the talk about young players he doesn't actually use the academy players. 

He didn't have to play Silvera at centre forward. He could have started Kavanagh or Nkrumah in order to freshen up Silvera or rest Greenwood and play Silvera where he is best. Sure, Kavanagh and Nkrumah might not be at quite the same level but the only way they'll get to improve is by playing 60 minutes from the start. While Rogers, Silvera, Crooks and Greenwood are dying on their feet, Gilbert is sitting on the bench picking his nose. 

Something that has become apparent is that Carrick simply will not use academy players. Hackney was introduced last season by Leo who eased him into the team over 5 games. Since then, nothing. A few brief run outs in friendlies and cup games but that's it. We have Agyemang who is a right back and we don't have a right back but Carrick would rather play an exhausted 1st team member out of position. Agyemang is two years older than RVDB. Sure RVDB is miles better and Agyemang may never make the grade, but for all he talks about, Carrick seems to be as reluctant to use the academy players from the start as Wilder was.

He also will not alter his formation to cover up the gaps. Right now he appears to be an incredibly inflexible manager who would rather run his 1st team into the ground than turn to the academy.  The injury list is appalling, but in the same way that Howe is getting questioned at Newcastle, you have to look at Carrick's inability to set up a team to cope with it.

Yes, you can't have 14 senior players out and expect it not to make a huge impact but I'm not convinced that Carrick is making the best of who he does have available.

Bravo! 👏

Summed up my own thoughts very well there.

This is exactly the kind of situation where you make use of your young players. Sure its not ideal and it may potentially cost you some results, but as we saw yesterday, playing knackered first teamers game after game can also cost you results.

Plus, as you said, the only way you'll find out if the kids can make the step up is to give them chances to prove themselves.

[Smokedsalmon 1,347 850]

1 hour ago, Bruce said:

Same here except for one thing which is that Carrick has shown himself unwilling to rotate or rest players even when he has a full squad to pick from. Although he talks the talk about young players he doesn't actually use the academy players. 

He didn't have to play Silvera at centre forward. He could have started Kavanagh or Nkrumah in order to freshen up Silvera or rest Greenwood and play Silvera where he is best. Sure, Kavanagh and Nkrumah might not be at quite the same level but the only way they'll get to improve is by playing 60 minutes from the start. While Rogers, Silvera, Crooks and Greenwood are dying on their feet, Gilbert is sitting on the bench picking his nose. 

Something that has become apparent is that Carrick simply will not use academy players. Hackney was introduced last season by Leo who eased him into the team over 5 games. Since then, nothing. A few brief run outs in friendlies and cup games but that's it. We have Agyemang who is a right back and we don't have a right back but Carrick would rather play an exhausted 1st team member out of position. Agyemang is two years older than RVDB. Sure RVDB is miles better and Agyemang may never make the grade, but for all he talks about, Carrick seems to be as reluctant to use the academy players from the start as Wilder was.

He also will not alter his formation to cover up the gaps. Right now he appears to be an incredibly inflexible manager who would rather run his 1st team into the ground than turn to the academy.  The injury list is appalling, but in the same way that Howe is getting questioned at Newcastle, you have to look at Carrick's inability to set up a team to cope with it.

Yes, you can't have 14 senior players out and expect it not to make a huge impact but I'm not convinced that Carrick is making the best of who he does have available.

Spot on this - really good post.

Carrick's tactical inflexibility is really concerning. I was pleased to see him switch it to a back 5 against Huddersfield because it proved, if nothing else, that he has it in him. But I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that since he took over that is the first time he has ever swapped from the 4-2-3-1?

I've been a bit indifferent this season because whilst I hoped to see an evolution on our style and system, it feels like we've actually lost a lot of our identity. He has tried to fit the new players into the same roles as last year and I don't think it has worked overall. Defensively we have never been great under Carrick but right now we are so, so poor - probably the softest Boro team I can remember at the back - and I haven't seen much evidence of adapting the style to try and shore this up.

I'm in that "we are in mid-table Championship purgatory" stage where any of the momentum and good-will built up in our amazing run last season has sadly burnt out. You can feel that around the stadium, too, which feels like it has entered the dreary acceptance stage. Carrick has been dealt a tough hand in that the summer signings were basically all projects and we've had horrific injuries but as the above post says, if we're going to be stuck in mid-table Championship purgatory, you may as well introduce some kids and hope one stands out like Hackney.

 

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

1 hour ago, Bruce said:

Same here except for one thing which is that Carrick has shown himself unwilling to rotate or rest players even when he has a full squad to pick from. Although he talks the talk about young players he doesn't actually use the academy players. 

He didn't have to play Silvera at centre forward. He could have started Kavanagh or Nkrumah in order to freshen up Silvera or rest Greenwood and play Silvera where he is best. Sure, Kavanagh and Nkrumah might not be at quite the same level but the only way they'll get to improve is by playing 60 minutes from the start. While Rogers, Silvera, Crooks and Greenwood are dying on their feet, Gilbert is sitting on the bench picking his nose. 

Something that has become apparent is that Carrick simply will not use academy players. Hackney was introduced last season by Leo who eased him into the team over 5 games. Since then, nothing. A few brief run outs in friendlies and cup games but that's it. We have Agyemang who is a right back and we don't have a right back but Carrick would rather play an exhausted 1st team member out of position. Agyemang is two years older than RVDB. Sure RVDB is miles better and Agyemang may never make the grade, but for all he talks about, Carrick seems to be as reluctant to use the academy players from the start as Wilder was.

He also will not alter his formation to cover up the gaps. Right now he appears to be an incredibly inflexible manager who would rather run his 1st team into the ground than turn to the academy.  The injury list is appalling, but in the same way that Howe is getting questioned at Newcastle, you have to look at Carrick's inability to set up a team to cope with it.

Yes, you can't have 14 senior players out and expect it not to make a huge impact but I'm not convinced that Carrick is making the best of who he does have available.

Going to play devils advocate here, Carrick isn't playing many of the academy players BUT he has proved time and again that he will play players regardless of their age if they're good enough. Last season Giles, Archer, ramsey, Hackney all got plenty of game time at 20/21 years old. This year rogers, vdb, Hackney, coburn (ahead of a 5mil striker), Greenwood are all playing regular minutes at that age group. I can't think of many managers in recent years that have trusted that many youngsters in the first 11 regularly. The issue is clearly that Carrick doesn't think the players coming through the academy aren't good enough yet, and tbh they've shown nothing in their albeit limited minutes so far to prove him wrong. We have these calls to play the kids with nearly every manager and 9 times out of10 the kid that is being talked about never becomes good enough for this level never mind at 18/19.

People are talking like this season doesn't matter, we can write it off and who cares, just play the kids. But Carrick is here to win football games and it's vital we stay in the mixer for the play offs so that when our squad is back to something approaching full strength we can really push on. This involves playing his best players that we currently have. And I get the calls to give them a rest but if the backup isn't good enough to get points at this level yet then he has no alternative imo.

I also get the argument that you'll not know how good the kids are till we play them, and i agree to an extent. But Carrick has built enough good will by now that if he sees these kids playing every day on the training field and u21 games and considers them not to be ready yet then I trust him

[wilsoncgp 10,215 20k]

There's more to it than just giving them a chance for sure but I'm not sure there is a perfect opportunity to play them. You are judged from the moment you come into the team for a significant period of a game so he has to weigh that up and particularly in games where you're struggling so much but are somehow still just about in the game, changing can upset things more than you want. But if you're going to make it then you have to be capable of pushing for and taking that opportunity as and when it arrives. We could all see that there was just a sheer lack of energy in that second half, the players were running on empty tanks and it's not surprising that that is the case. So the fact that not one of the young players got any significant period on the pitch almost tells its own story too.

It truly is only a case of finding out if they can make it by putting them on the pitch and putting them in when it matters. Dropping them into games where half the team is already in the process of playing the game out isn't giving them the chance to really influence proceedings.

It'd be a really tough game to make your first start in but I would be seriously considering playing McCabe and/or Kavanagh from the start against Villa. It's going to be hard enough to win that game without fresh legs. It's also, in my eyes, a low pressure game, all the pressure is on Villa to turn up and get through.

[Smokedsalmon 1,347 850]

Just now, Neverbefore said:

Going to play devils advocate here, Carrick isn't playing many of the academy players BUT he has proved time and again that he will play players regardless of their age if they're good enough. Last season Giles, Archer, ramsey, Hackney all got plenty of game time at 20/21 years old. This year rogers, vdb, Hackney, coburn (ahead of a 5mil striker), Greenwood are all playing regular minutes at that age group. I can't think of many managers in recent years that have trusted that many youngsters in the first 11 regularly. The issue is clearly that Carrick doesn't think the players coming through the academy aren't good enough yet, and tbh they've shown nothing in their albeit limited minutes so far to prove him wrong. We have these calls to play the kids with nearly every manager and 9 times out of10 the kid that is being talked about never becomes good enough for this level never mind at 18/19.

People are talking like this season doesn't matter, we can write it off and who cares, just play the kids. But Carrick is here to win football games and it's vital we stay in the mixer for the play offs so that when our squad is back to something approaching full strength we can really push on. This involves playing his best players that we currently have. And I get the calls to give them a rest but if the backup isn't good enough to get points at this level yet then he has no alternative imo.

I also get the argument that you'll not know how good the kids are till we play them, and i agree to an extent. But Carrick has built enough good will by now that if he sees these kids playing every day on the training field and u21 games and considers them not to be ready yet then I trust him

I'm not sure you can give Carrick credit for playing those players when he doesn't have a choice. That's just our squad mate. If he wasn't playing Giles, Archer, Ramsey, Hackney last year, who would he have played? If he doesn't play VDB, Hackney, Coburn, Greenwood this year, who does he play?

[Smokedsalmon 1,347 850]

1 minute ago, wilsoncgp said:

There's more to it than just giving them a chance for sure but I'm not sure there is a perfect opportunity to play them. You are judged from the moment you come into the team for a significant period of a game so he has to weigh that up and particularly in games where you're struggling so much but are somehow still just about in the game, changing can upset things more than you want. But if you're going to make it then you have to be capable of pushing for and taking that opportunity as and when it arrives. We could all see that there was just a sheer lack of energy in that second half, the players were running on empty tanks and it's not surprising that that is the case. So the fact that not one of the young players got any significant period on the pitch almost tells its own story too.

It truly is only a case of finding out if they can make it by putting them on the pitch and putting them in when it matters. Dropping them into games where half the team is already in the process of playing the game out isn't giving them the chance to really influence proceedings.

It'd be a really tough game to make your first start in but I would be seriously considering playing McCabe and/or Kavanagh from the start against Villa. It's going to be hard enough to win that game without fresh legs. It's also, in my eyes, a low pressure game, all the pressure is on Villa to turn up and get through.

I think there's an argument that if your first team are clearly all very good players then sticking a kid in to sink or swim can be tough on them. But I think right now our first team squad is very young anyway, and very average overall in ability.

Hackney came in under Leo last year in our lowest period of the season post-Wilder when we were absolutely stinking the gaff out every time we played and he immediately looked head and shoulders above Howson & our other midfielders, to the point he is now very clearly the best CM at the club. If they're good enough and have the right attitude they will be fine at this level, you just need to start them and give them consistent game-time. Our academy is our crown jewel and should be used at every opportunity.

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

Just now, Smokedsalmon said:

I'm not sure you can give Carrick credit for playing those players when he doesn't have a choice. That's just our squad mate. If he wasn't playing Giles, Archer, Ramsey, Hackney last year, who would he have played? If he doesn't play VDB, Hackney, Coburn, Greenwood this year, who does he play?

He's involved in the recruitment process. He's clearly fine with working with young players. Coburn had taken ELLs starting spot when he was fit is a good example. Hackney had a bit of a poor run of form last season and instead of putting barlaser in Carrick stuck with him until he played himself out of it. Silvera is a bit older than Greenwood and Rogers but was firmly behind them both till injuries forced him to start. He could have played forss or stuck with crooks last season up front but we went out and got a young player on loan to play there instead. Ramsey was playing ahead of Jones and forss when fit last season. 

There are lots of examples where he's has an opportunity to play more experienced players but didn't. 

[AnglianRed 7,883 18.1k]

6 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

There's more to it than just giving them a chance for sure but I'm not sure there is a perfect opportunity to play them. You are judged from the moment you come into the team for a significant period of a game so he has to weigh that up and particularly in games where you're struggling so much but are somehow still just about in the game, changing can upset things more than you want. But if you're going to make it then you have to be capable of pushing for and taking that opportunity as and when it arrives. We could all see that there was just a sheer lack of energy in that second half, the players were running on empty tanks and it's not surprising that that is the case. So the fact that not one of the young players got any significant period on the pitch almost tells its own story too.

It truly is only a case of finding out if they can make it by putting them on the pitch and putting them in when it matters. Dropping them into games where half the team is already in the process of playing the game out isn't giving them the chance to really influence proceedings.

It'd be a really tough game to make your first start in but I would be seriously considering playing McCabe and/or Kavanagh from the start against Villa. It's going to be hard enough to win that game without fresh legs. It's also, in my eyes, a low pressure game, all the pressure is on Villa to turn up and get through.

I think the Villa game would be a good one to bring on a few kids for the last 30 minutes or so, if they hammer us as I assume they will. We're massive underdogs anyway, so won't be under any pressure to deliver a result and it will keep the senior players that bit fresher for when they have to travel to Millwall 4 days later.

While our injury crisis is ongoing (and until we make some signings) I think rotating some U-21s into the starting 11 every other game would be a good way to get them some experience, while preventing the senior players suffering burnout...but thats just me.

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

If he sees Greenwood in training and the U21's and thinks Greenwood is the best option we need to scrap the Academy!

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

2 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

If he sees Greenwood in training and the U21's and thinks Greenwood is the best option we need to scrap the Academy!

As *** poor as he looks sometimes, he's still got 7 goal involvements at this level in 1200 odd mins of football. Yes he disappears from games and I wish he'd look after the ball better, we don't have anyone in reserve with those kinds of numbers. So I can see why he's being stuck with. I just hope its him and not rogers that gets sacrificed when crooks is back.

[LinoJo3 5,822 13.6k]

.

[Skinemrippers 1,168 1.2k]

I’d like to see Gilbert get a start and maybe a run of games from the bench. I think he’s showed some potential - he must be so frustrated not to be getting a look in with the current injury crisis. 

[Bruce 3,157 2.5k]

In The Gazette, Carrick says more than perhaps he meant to. Asked about why he waited so long to make changes after went 3-1 down, he says.

Quote

You do still hope you have enough quality on the pitch already to find a way through too. Going into the last ten minutes or so, if we’d have got one goal, the game can change quite quickly.

He is literally saying that the players on the bench aren't of the quality needed even when those on the pitch are dying on their feet so he won't put them on until they can't make a difference.

Maybe he's right. Maybe our academy is full of players who are not only not even close to the standard needed but never will be. Maybe Gilbert is so poor that Greenwood sitting on the sideline is more likely to pull a goal back than he is.

If so, we have to question what is going on with our youth development and we need to kick Gilbert out the door. 

[wilsoncgp 10,215 20k]

1 hour ago, Bruce said:

In The Gazette, Carrick says more than perhaps he meant to. Asked about why he waited so long to make changes after went 3-1 down, he says.

He is literally saying that the players on the bench aren't of the quality needed even when those on the pitch are dying on their feet so he won't put them on until they can't make a difference.

Maybe he's right. Maybe our academy is full of players who are not only not even close to the standard needed but never will be. Maybe Gilbert is so poor that Greenwood sitting on the sideline is more likely to pull a goal back than he is.

If so, we have to question what is going on with our youth development and we need to kick Gilbert out the door. 

I'm not sure it's a gotcha moment, personally. I don't think what he's said is particularly out of the ordinary for a coach, anyway. I think that he was asked the question about bringing on the young lads and gave a pretty non-committal answer between throwing them on and giving a chance and protecting them. He essentially says there's a bit of both thinking going through his head, he'd love to get them on and give them the experience but he's also thinking about the other side of it and protecting them when considering whether to put them on (albeit admittedly, I think this is one of those occasions where I wonder if you get the same answer if the journalist doesn't provide the safe response in his line of questioning, I wonder if that is perhaps because Carrick plays his cards so close to his chest at all times that if you don't feed him the answer to take then he just won't say anything).

He follows that point up with the line you've quoted and I think that full answer is good context to provide in front of the line itself. He essentially thinks it's a hard decision to make between throwing them on and giving them a chance in a real game under real pressure or protecting them. When judging which side of the coin to fall on, he's looking at what is on the pitch already and thinking there's still enough there to get something out of the game and that means he can focus on protecting the young players. I don't think that's an outright sign of dismay at the quality of the youngsters, we're still giving these lads their first pro contracts.

Still, I have to fall back on what I've said previously and wonder when the right time to bring a youngster onto the pitch really is. It's not when you're chasing or holding onto a result because there's too much pressure and it's not when you're winning comfortably because their enthusiasm won't be matched by the rest of the team if they come on all guns blazing. I think the right time has to fall somewhere in the former position though as otherwise you're not testing them and providing them an ample opportunity to play at the same pace as the rest of the first team.

What I would also like to know is what's going through the young lads' heads in those moments. Are they just happy to be taking in the scenery of a place on a first team bench in front of a real crowd right now or do they watch the game, wonder and see themselves on the pitch? I wouldn't blame them if it's the former because these are pretty new experiences for them (and I'd also say perhaps the coaching staff might see and appreciate the difference that makes more than we do on the training pitch). But if it's the latter then I hope they speak up and ask the question, if not during a match then afterwards in a less chaotic environment, to give the coaches something to think about in games like that.

[AnglianRed 7,883 18.1k]

2 hours ago, Bruce said:

In The Gazette, Carrick says more than perhaps he meant to. Asked about why he waited so long to make changes after went 3-1 down, he says.

He is literally saying that the players on the bench aren't of the quality needed even when those on the pitch are dying on their feet so he won't put them on until they can't make a difference.

Maybe he's right. Maybe our academy is full of players who are not only not even close to the standard needed but never will be. Maybe Gilbert is so poor that Greenwood sitting on the sideline is more likely to pull a goal back than he is.

If so, we have to question what is going on with our youth development and we need to kick Gilbert out the door. 

Thats a head-scratcher for me.

Speaking from a position of ignorance, I would have thought that players who make it to the U-21s are surely considered to be at least potentially good enough to make the first team.

I mean I've seen a couple of documentaries about the academies of PL teams and have seen young players can be let go at pretty much any stage, if the coaches don't think they've got what it takes. So if they've made it that far, aren't they are worth a gamble? 🤷‍♂️

Also, if Carrick is comparing the youngsters to his senior players I don't think thats really fair, considering they have far more game time and experience. The youngsters may be short on quality, but sometimes youthful energy can make up for it. When you're chasing a game a couple of goals down, I don't think you have much to lose.

I think you can still protect young players in a tough game or losing situation simply by not putting too much pressure on them to win the game for you. They need to develop resilience and having a few "character building" games might actually help them.

Carrick must have noticed we weren't creating nearly as many chances as we did in the first half - that must have told him something. If he was putting all his hopes on a "Hail Mary" moment, that we'd just conjure something and pull a goal back...with tiring players...then I think thats a lapse in judgement on his part.

 

Obviously I don't know what Carrick has been told by Gibson. Is making the play-offs a target for this season? If so I suppose I can understand that line of thinking, but with the amount of injuries we've picked up, plus the general inconsistency of our performances over the season, its by no means an easy task. Persisting with the players he has most faith in could backfire on him, if they end up injured or run into the ground.

Edited January 3, 2024 by AnglianRed