BORO v Coventry City 1-3 (Coburn)

[AnglianRed 7,882 18.1k]

1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

He follows that point up with the line you've quoted and I think that full answer is good context to provide in front of the line itself. He essentially thinks it's a hard decision to make between throwing them on and giving them a chance in a real game under real pressure or protecting them. When judging which side of the coin to fall on, he's looking at what is on the pitch already and thinking there's still enough there to get something out of the game and that means he can focus on protecting the young players. I don't think that's an outright sign of dismay at the quality of the youngsters, we're still giving these lads their first pro contracts.

Still, I have to fall back on what I've said previously and wonder when the right time to bring a youngster onto the pitch really is. It's not when you're chasing or holding onto a result because there's too much pressure and it's not when you're winning comfortably because their enthusiasm won't be matched by the rest of the team if they come on all guns blazing. I think the right time has to fall somewhere in the former position though as otherwise you're not testing them and providing them an ample opportunity to play at the same pace as the rest of the first team.

Agree with most of your points, but as I said in my reply to Bruce, I think Carrick is possibly being over-protective of the younger players. Those "perfect" opportunities to come on won't come around that often. I think you can still protect them in tough situations by making it clear they are not expected to win the game for the team...just go out there and do the best they can, listen to instructions / advice from the senior players and learn as much as they can from being in a competitive league match. I don't think you can expect much more than that...plus it can help build the resilience / mental toughness that all pro sports people need.

It does seem most of our academy players eventually get sold to lower league teams, without ever making a first team debut...which is sad.

[Bruce 3,086 2.4k]

1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

Still, I have to fall back on what I've said previously and wonder when the right time to bring a youngster onto the pitch really is.

It isn't easy. The best introduction of a young player I've seen recently is how Leo handled Hackney. He brought him to a failing team, kept out a senior pro (Mowatt) and gave him time to prove himself. What he didn't do was stick him on the bench and give him 2 minutes at the end of a game when he could do no harm. He also didn't just throw half a dozen youngsters and see what happened.

There's definitely an argument for giving players who have never played senior football a few minutes and some time on the bench as a taste but at some point you have to either commit to the likes of Kavanagh or give up on them.

As far as I can see, Carrick flat out refuses to start any player who hasn't already played a significant amount of senior football. So someone like Gilbert just doesn't get a chance while Silvera does. But also we have no lack of academy players who have played senior football who are also not getting serious minutes. 

You have to rely on the judgement of Carrick and the coaching team but if I was a young player I would be narked as hell at being "protected". I want to get on the pitch for at least 30 minutes and get a chance. So far, for whatever reason, Carrick isn't doing that. It hurt us at the end of last season when our players were run into the ground and it is hurting us again.

 

[Redcar Rioja 9,018 8.8k]

5 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Agree with most of your points, but as I said in my reply to Bruce, I think Carrick is possibly being over-protective of the younger players. Those "perfect" opportunities to come on won't come around that often. I think you can still protect them in tough situations by making it clear they are not expected to win the game for the team...just go out there and do the best they can, listen to instructions / advice from the senior players and learn as much as they can from being in a competitive league match. I don't think you can expect much more than that...plus it can help build the resilience / mental toughness that all pro sports people need.

It does seem most of our academy players eventually get sold to lower league teams, without ever making a first team debut...which is sad.

If a leggy, weary and tired Barlaser or Howson give the ball away compared to say McCabe the reaction from the crowd will be totally different, for the former two it will be moans and groans whilst with the youngsters it will be encouragement or biting lips, worse case scenario. As bad and fickle as we can all be as supporters I've never witnessed a kid being targeted at either Ayresome or the Riverside, in fact they are more likely to chant his name.

If MC is waiting to be 6-0 up with 40 minutes left to give a youngster an opportunity then that day is never going to come but meanwhile the seniors who he has left to work with are picking up more strains, tears and knocks.

[wilsoncgp 10,100 19.9k]

6 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Agree with most of your points, but as I said in my reply to Bruce, I think Carrick is possibly being over-protective of the younger players. Those "perfect" opportunities to come on won't come around that often. I think you can still protect them in tough situations by making it clear they are not expected to win the game for the team...just go out there and do the best they can, listen to instructions / advice from the senior players and learn as much as they can from being in a competitive league match. I don't think you can expect much more than that...plus it can help build the resilience / mental toughness that all pro sports people need.

It does seem most of our academy players eventually get sold to lower league teams, without ever making a first team debut...which is sad.

I agree personally, I would like to see us having been braver in the last few weeks. But I don't think this is anything specific to Carrick. I think most people in his position would do the same. In fact, I think the only manager in recent memory in any way committed to giving young prospect players game time tended to play them all at once in the cup and that was Tony Pulis. And most of them got shipped on to become relative nobodies too. Enes Mahmutovic played for us but he's nothing more than a difficult trivia question, at least in relation to English football and Middlesbrough.

[wilsoncgp 10,100 19.9k]

8 minutes ago, Bruce said:

You have to rely on the judgement of Carrick and the coaching team but if I was a young player I would be narked as hell at being "protected". I want to get on the pitch for at least 30 minutes and get a chance. So far, for whatever reason, Carrick isn't doing that. It hurt us at the end of last season when our players were run into the ground and it is hurting us again.

Aye, ultimately the decision isn't in their hands but I hope they're asking the question behind closed doors. I wouldn't hold it against them if they're not because it's Carrick and his staff's responsibility really but I would like to have heard that one or two of the young lads were putting themselves forward to play and help in this recent situation.

[Redcar Rioja 9,018 8.8k]

I doubt if a young lad is going to risk ruffling the feathers of a Coach by saying they think they should be playing. At that age it would be rare to have that level of confidence and boldness and the ones that do are often the ones that get themselves into bother but who get attention for the wrong reasons. I would hope that there are Coaches around who could put them forward to Carrick, isn't or wasn't Leo supposed to be a mentor/transitioning figure within the Club?

[Neverbefore 14,994 29.3k]

37 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Agree with most of your points, but as I said in my reply to Bruce, I think Carrick is possibly being over-protective of the younger players. Those "perfect" opportunities to come on won't come around that often. I think you can still protect them in tough situations by making it clear they are not expected to win the game for the team...just go out there and do the best they can, listen to instructions / advice from the senior players and learn as much as they can from being in a competitive league match. I don't think you can expect much more than that...plus it can help build the resilience / mental toughness that all pro sports people need.

It does seem most of our academy players eventually get sold to lower league teams, without ever making a first team debut...which is sad.

Or indicative of their lack of quality? How many over the last 10 years have gone on to prove us wrong? I'd say none personally. Pears maybe but he's still just an average championship keeper.

The percentage of players who make it in the top two levels of football is extremely low, you have to be a very good footballer to play championship football now.

[AnglianRed 7,882 18.1k]

19 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

I doubt if a young lad is going to risk ruffling the feathers of a Coach by saying they think they should be playing. At that age it would be rare to have that level of confidence and boldness and the ones that do are often the ones that get themselves into bother but who get attention for the wrong reasons. I would hope that there are Coaches around who could put them forward to Carrick, isn't or wasn't Leo supposed to be a mentor/transitioning figure within the Club?

I suppose it depends how they ask.

If they're arrogant or stroppy, then it definitely wouldn't do them any favours, but I don't think a coach would mind if they were just being confident and polite about it.

Of course, you'd think that if the coaches thought they were ready, they would have a word with Carrick. Maybe they have...or maybe (worryingly) the staff are all on the same page and don't really rate any of our youngsters? 🤷‍♂️☹️

[AnglianRed 7,882 18.1k]

16 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Or indicative of their lack of quality? How many over the last 10 years have gone on to prove us wrong? I'd say none personally. Pears maybe but he's still just an average championship keeper.

The percentage of players who make it in the top two levels of football is extremely low, you have to be a very good footballer to play championship football now.

Fair point - I can't think of any off the top of my head. But doing well can also be down to being in the right environment.

We've brought in a few players over the years on the back of good seasons with other clubs, who were awful while they were with Boro.

Sometimes it can just be about having the right manager / playing style to get a player to come good, as we saw with Akpom.

Its at least possible that if we'd given more chances to academy players more of them might have come good. But I agree with you the Championship is such a dogfight of a league now, you really need to be able to hit the ground running. Maybe we really do need to raise standards at the academy if we want to see more players break through? 🤷‍♂️

[Neverbefore 14,994 29.3k]

1 minute ago, AnglianRed said:

Fair point - I can't think of any off the top of my head. But doing well can also be down to being in the right environment.

We've brought in a few players over the years on the back of good seasons with other clubs, who were awful while they were with Boro.

Sometimes it can just be about having the right manager / playing style to get a player to come good, as we saw with Akpom.

Its at least possible that if we'd given more chances to academy players more of them might have come good. But I agree with you the Championship is such a dogfight of a league now, you really need to be able to hit the ground running. Maybe we really do need to raise standards at the academy if we want to see more players break through? 🤷‍♂️

Our academy is still amongst the best in the country, few sides produce more football league players than us. In our side we have produced Hackney, coburn and fry, all established first team starters, plus sold tav for good money, which is a pretty decent result tbh. It's just that of all of those players on the bench for us, the odds say MAYBE one will be good enough for championship football at some point in their career, but the likelihood of that being now is miniscule. 

Of course we may stumble upon a golden generation at some point, but a lot of that is down to luck as opposed to the quality of the academy. Right now, I think it's doing its job quite well.

[Rob 6,394 9.8k]

15 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Or indicative of their lack of quality? How many over the last 10 years have gone on to prove us wrong? I'd say none personally. Pears maybe but he's still just an average championship keeper.

The percentage of players who make it in the top two levels of football is extremely low, you have to be a very good footballer to play championship football now.

yeah the output we have had in the first team has been over and above what most academies produce at our level, most typically make players that get sold or released for other clubs. 

having coburn and hackney as solid first team players bar the odd exception every few years is really as good as it generally gets (for our league certainly we are very much above average), and expecting we have plenty more just waiting to be pulled out is probs a bit of a reach (which no doubt will be expected when you have a few recent successes become big parts of the team. 

plus we have a few others getting the odd first appearance here and there on the fringes, and I have no doubt that the current coach/manager team know how everyone is doing too and does not need anyone knocking their door down.

I do think there are probs not a great deal of faces ready for the step up (on a regular basis), as I would of expected them to go out on loan, and we only really had roberts and hoppe go out on loans this year, which looked more to get their wages off the books more than anything else 

Just now, Neverbefore said:

Our academy is still amongst the best in the country, few sides produce more football league players than us. In our side we have produced Hackney, coburn and fry, all established first team starters, plus sold tav for good money, which is a pretty decent result tbh. It's just that of all of those players on the bench for us, the odds say MAYBE one will be good enough for championship football at some point in their career, but the likelihood of that being now is miniscule. 

Of course we may stumble upon a golden generation at some point, but a lot of that is down to luck as opposed to the quality of the academy. Right now, I think it's doing its job quite well.

you also have spence too, and gibson not that long back that have brought in big fees and plenty of appearances, gibson being true academy, but spence being more a academy acquisition, but still these are how many academies are built up with older talent who have moved clubs as they got released or new offers elsewhere.

I'm sure I read something earlier in the year that was were 9th best at producing players who get the most appearances for club and/or country after leaving us (each game giving a set amount of points dependant on the level the game was played at, eg playing for england overs and in premier league is worth more points for the rankings than playing games in leagues below). considering theres a full league of 20 clubs above our league, that is about as good as you probs will get at our level.

you hear more about the premier clubs successes before us as they use their academy status to hoard new talent, so they take on way more than needed (and need to sell/loan out way more also - so you hear more about their youngsters way more), where we have the option to do this as well but chose to cultivate locally for youngsters most of the time, because its probably expensive way to try and engineer a profit, with championship players have way less fee upside than premier league players.

This is obviously because we can't compete doing the same as other clubs who are cutting cheques for millions to absorb their talent and giving the players juicy wages. We would probs be better off spending the money on further developed talent who are closer or ready for first team action than someone who is a year or two or more from it.

Look at Rogers, city paid WBA £4m for him when he was still 16. Probs a deal they have lost money on, but they bought into his potential and ringfenced it for man city until they were no longer invested in him and cut ties and let him come to us, not only does it give them first tabs on players like him, but also gives them chance as well to buy backs on them when they sell them, which can leave them with the option on a player after they pass on them, just incase they pull it off, and lets not forget that all the sales and loan revenue from these players is at a total profit for your FFP budget, so say if city got £1m from us for rogers, technically thats a £4m fee paid out along with his wages, with £1m paid back by us and any money from his other loans contributing to at least a multi million pound loss, but in FFP its £1m of profit brought to the accounts, with the expenses for him in the academy etc being all allowed expenses with FFP, so if you use that £1m to buy a player over a 4 year contract, that £1m could be spent at that point as £4m there and then. 

difference between being on that level or close to it is city can use them acquisitions and bring up their own players as a massive factory, their training facilities are an industrial estate and with 16 pitches you can train and work on 32 line ups at the same time, looking over their numbers looks like city alone have made just under £160m from sales this year from their academy, but they must have spent an awful lot as well. 

[sanddancer 2,099 6.2k]

Quite simply we don’t have a rich benefactor and the town isn’t big enough to justify large investments. 

[LinoJo3 5,748 13.5k]

Wait hasn’t Carrick gave Coburn plenty of game time, including dropping lath to play him. Had a bench full of academy players and used kavanagh and McCabe?

You may say he had no choice but to play Coburn but from what I remember Leo had a similar problem with CM numbers at the time.

We always have these debates about ‘playing the kids’ and 99% of the time the names that get thrown about are vanished and forgotten a year or so later. 
 

The harsh reality of football is most of them probably aren’t good enough to play at the level we need, having 2 come through in 2 seasons is probably about right.

Maddo was replying to texts saying kavanagh needs to be playing and even he was a bit down on the idea hinting that he’s likely not ready, usually he loves bigging up our academy players.

[Bruce 3,086 2.4k]

29 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

Wait hasn’t Carrick gave Coburn plenty of game time, including dropping lath to play him. Had a bench full of academy players and used kavanagh and McCabe?

You may say he had no choice but to play Coburn but from what I remember Leo had a similar problem with CM numbers at the time.

We always have these debates about ‘playing the kids’ and 99% of the time the names that get thrown about are vanished and forgotten a year or so later. 

Undoubtedly true. It may be that our current crop of academy seniors are simply not good enough. 

You can look at cohorts.

Juniors (U18s). McCabe, Bridge, Cartwright etc. Academy players who have never played senior football. Including them in some training and maybe giving them some matchday experience is exactly what you want to see. Carrick has been good at doing this.

Academy seniors (20+) who have no significant senior experience. Not many of these but they are probably about to be let go in the next few months. Players like Bilongo, Gibson, Sykes. Probably no real point in having them around the team.

Academy seniors (20+) who have had senior experience (on loan usually). We have a lot of these. Some of them who have come up through the ranks and some of them have been acquired for the academy. Fletcher, Hannah, Agyemang, Sivi, Collins, Nkrumah, probably more. They either need to be playing regularly on loan in league 1 or 2 or be serious contenders for the first team squad. If not, they are out the door. 

Then you get oddities like Gilbert and Boyd Munce who are bought for the first team but never play.

I can only assume that none of our current batch of seniors are considered to be at the standard required and won't develop to that standard. There are probably a good 6+ seniors each year get let go; that's just normal for football. Our current crop, though, seems to be very poorly regarded on one hand but doing well in PL2 on the other hand. Possibly we have a bunch who are now too good for U21 football but not good enough for professional football.

Given the injury crisis, Carrick's refusal to use youngsters on the bench in any meaningful way seems odd.

[LinoJo3 5,748 13.5k]

27 minutes ago, Bruce said:

Undoubtedly true. It may be that our current crop of academy seniors are simply not good enough. 

You can look at cohorts.

Juniors (U18s). McCabe, Bridge, Cartwright etc. Academy players who have never played senior football. Including them in some training and maybe giving them some matchday experience is exactly what you want to see. Carrick has been good at doing this.

Academy seniors (20+) who have no significant senior experience. Not many of these but they are probably about to be let go in the next few months. Players like Bilongo, Gibson, Sykes. Probably no real point in having them around the team.

Academy seniors (20+) who have had senior experience (on loan usually). We have a lot of these. Some of them who have come up through the ranks and some of them have been acquired for the academy. Fletcher, Hannah, Agyemang, Sivi, Collins, Nkrumah, probably more. They either need to be playing regularly on loan in league 1 or 2 or be serious contenders for the first team squad. If not, they are out the door. 

Then you get oddities like Gilbert and Boyd Munce who are bought for the first team but never play.

I can only assume that none of our current batch of seniors are considered to be at the standard required and won't develop to that standard. There are probably a good 6+ seniors each year get let go; that's just normal for football. Our current crop, though, seems to be very poorly regarded on one hand but doing well in PL2 on the other hand. Possibly we have a bunch who are now too good for U21 football but not good enough for professional football.

Given the injury crisis, Carrick's refusal to use youngsters on the bench in any meaningful way seems odd.

Why does it have to be ‘odd’? Maybe it’s just the right thing to do. I agree it’s hard to know either way without seeing them play, but I just dislike how it’s used as a stick to beat managers with when they are in a far better position than us to know if they’re good enough.