TLF10 5,307 7k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 @Neverbefore. Completely agree with your assessment of squad there. Pretty much my thoughts in terms of our strengths and where we need to improve come summer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnglianRed 7,249 17.1k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 13 hours ago, Guffie said: Can’t wait for Leicester saturdsy 🙃🙃 I think I'll be giving that one a miss too. Can't see that being anything other than a horror show...or we'll find some other comedic way to shoot ourselves in both feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,963 12.8k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 25 minutes ago, AnglianRed said: Not really contradictory at all. Like Hicktonpen (I think) you're picking out 1 player who ended up leaving on a high after a mixed start. You could also pick out guys like McGree and Hackney, but even they've had their ups and downs. They haven't been brilliant all the time. The problem is the first team squad as a whole. Our starting lineup has weak links to begin with and those weaknesses only seem to increase when we make subs. Our players keep making the same basic mistakes again and again. Why are the coaching team not addressing this (or if they are they're doing a ***-poor job)? So they have to be brilliant all the time to be able to say that the coaching staff can demonstrably improve players? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAgainst 4,553 3.8k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, TLF10 said: @RiseAgainst. Think its harsh to say Azaz needs a “fairly sizeable benefit of doubt”. Lads been here a month and has shown some good positive signs. I would not get on his back too soon as a “sizeable” section of our forum members had complete disregard for Morgan Rogers for first few months. Some going as far as to say “you cant win promotion with likes of Morgan Rogers”. He now competing for a champions league spot. I agree he has great potential, but so have other players who ultimately flattered to deceive. I'm not getting on his back - I really hope we keep him and he flourishes in our system - but he hasn't shown a great deal as yet. Hence why I suggested some people wouldn't be sad if he departed. 1 hour ago, TLF10 said: @RiseAgainst. Just from the squad, i think your list is right but that does not paint the full picture as I think there are several injured players who are all valuable players in this team - Lenihan, Fry, Jones and LL. Again, agree that we do have a few first-choice starters out, but I was commenting specifically on last night's 18. Even with the four players you mention - and I personally reserve judgement on LL who shows sporadic promise but hasn't done anything to suggest he's going to become a key player for us - you're looking at 11 players in our whole squad who are worth keeping. The rest could all join Sunderland in the summer, and I wouldn't be at all concerned when we played them next season. 50 minutes ago, Will said: (b) and (c) seem quite contradictory to me. We've just bought a player in the summer who only Championship clubs were interested in for £1m and within 6 months turned him into a player that a top 6 Premier League team decided was worth up to £16m. Did the coaching team not improve him? Sorry for the multiquote, but I don't think they are contradictory. Rogers may have improved under our coaching, or maybe we spotted a bargain everyone else missed. He wasn't consistent for us and we never saw the best of him, but he was clearly talented from the first time he played for us. Anyway, he's an outlier - of all the other players we signed in the summer, how many look significantly better? Engel is probably performing at the level he was before he joined us, having dipped dramatically after he joined us. Dieng is where I thought he'd be. From what we've seen, Silvera, Gilbert and Greenwood are no better than they were, which isn't a compliment. Bangura I can't really judge, but again, I wouldn't be sad to see him go. I'll ignore injury-cover short-term loan signings like Ayling and Thomas, who almost certainly won't be here next season. Occasionally a manager does drag great performances out of a player. Pulis did it with Traore, for instance. It doesn't mean they're great coaches, or adding value - occasionally it just clicks. It clearly did with Rogers, but I don't see other summer signings making anything like that level of progression - which, lest we forget, is supposedly our new model. And using the "it takes time to nurture a player and unlock their true potential" argument doesn't stand up either in Boro's case, since we sold Rogers after half a season! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estonpidge 1,661 6.2k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 Without Josh we lack a focal point, he's far from the finished article but this limping him through is doing nobody any good. Sometimes you just need to rip the Band-Aid off, get him properly sorted so he can make a full recovery before pre-season if not sooner. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnglianRed 7,249 17.1k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 1 hour ago, Neverbefore said: When we get them fit, mcgree, azaz and Jones are as good a 3 behind the striker as you'll get for a team that doesn't have parachute payments. Hackney on form is as good as you get too. Fry, lenihan, vdb and Clarke are all more than good enough centre halves for a promotion challenge. I think bangura is too, and engel has top tier qualities but also has aspects that really let him down. Nothing that can't be worked on ELL, similar to Engel but I think will be a real asset when he's fit again having had time to bed in. Silvera, forss, Smith, barlaser all decent enough options at this level. Like I said last night, a right back and defensive midfielder away from being a top 6 side imo, with a bit of luck on the injury front. A striker a must too but I still have faith in ELL to nail down that starting spot between now and summer. Thats a lot of ifs and buts though and as we've seen, things can unravel pretty quickly when we're missing a few first-choice players. I'm also not confident Boro have the coaching staff to work on anything with our players, otherwise surely by now we'd have seen some improvements in how we defend and play off the ball, as well as better co-ordination when going forward? Think we're still far too reliant on having our handful of potential matchwinners fit and firing. Anything less than that and we're in trouble. Even then we have a tendency to blow hot and cold - can never be sure which Boro will turn up on any given day. In a nutshell I think we've got a raft of issues that will take longer than a season to sort out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnglianRed 7,249 17.1k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 1 hour ago, RiseAgainst said: Occasionally a manager does drag great performances out of a player. Pulis did it with Traore, for instance. It doesn't mean they're great coaches, or adding value - occasionally it just clicks. It clearly did with Rogers, but I don't see other summer signings making anything like that level of progression - which, lest we forget, is supposedly our new model. And using the "it takes time to nurture a player and unlock their true potential" argument doesn't stand up either in Boro's case, since we sold Rogers after half a season! Agree with most of what you said, but remember footballers are people too. Like anyone else, they can learn and develop at different rates. It can also take different methods of training to unlock whatever potential they have...which I guess is why players can flourish under one manager, but not another. 😉 Saying that, I would have expected to see more improvement across the board with our squad than we seem to be getting (hence my questioning of our coaching set-up). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estonpidge 1,661 6.2k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 Thought Ayling looked shot after 50 minutes last night, both goals conceded came about from misplaced passes into a congested midfield, aimed at players in 1 v 2 situations and Preston had obviously worked on this has have other teams. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodane 7,357 27k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 Matches are won in and around the penalty boxes. Shame we are terrible in both boxes and only decent between them. It's something for the players and Carrick to work on that's for sure. But my god the players we bring in in the summer have to have pace. And then some more pace. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce 2,368 2k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 You have to look at a player's ability in the round, not as it is right now. There's a lot we don't know about the current squad but I reckon out of our current players their levels are something like this. Dieng - Top championship possibly lower Premier Glover - league one, lower championship. Clearly lost some confidence presently. Dijksteel - walking calamity Smith - Ok senior pro. Probably lower Championship these days McNair - decent Championship Fry - decent/top Championship Lenihan - Excellent senior pro, decent championship Clarke - coming back from injury but his record is as a top championship centre back RVDB - Premier league potential, probably decent championship right now Engel - hard to tell but somewhere between league 2 and lower Championship Hackney - Top championship with Premier league potential Howson - on the way out, probably lower championship at best Barlaser - probably decent championship but you need to build a team around him Jones - top championship but hampered by inconsistency Azaz - looks like a top championship player with possibly premier league potential McGree - top Championship, lower Premier league Latte Lath - shows signs of becoming a top championship striker but early days, probably lower championship right now Coburn - he's probably a lower championship player right now but could still improve a lot if he can get his injury permanently fixed. Silvera - League one, lower championship but could still improve a fair amount Forss - top Championship Out of loans who we could possibly buy O'Brien - coming back from injury but previously top championship / lower premier league Greenwood - yet to find his best position but definitely not a striker, probably lower championship level this season, Players we can't make a judgement on at this point Thomas, Bangura, Ayling, Gilbert, Hoppe My point is that our players are nowhere near as bad as recent results and performances make them look. We have been massively hit by injuries but a fully-fit squad looks like it ought to be able to compete for the playoffs. If we get it right this summer, there's no reason we can't start next season with a top 6 level squad. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoncgp 9,632 19.6k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 2 hours ago, AnglianRed said: Not really contradictory at all. Like Hicktonpen (I think) you're picking out 1 player who ended up leaving on a high after a mixed start. You could also pick out guys like McGree and Hackney, but even they've had their ups and downs. They haven't been brilliant all the time. The problem is the first team squad as a whole. Our starting lineup has weak links to begin with and those weaknesses only seem to increase when we make subs. Our players keep making the same basic mistakes again and again. Why are the coaching team not addressing this (or if they are they're doing a ***-poor job)? But surely the contradiction in that specific case is that we've only sold a player 5-6 months after signing him because we've improved him. In other words, if the coaching team hadn't improved the lad then he wouldn't have been sold. If he was already demonstrating that level of talent, it wouldn't have been us paying City for his services. Will isn't the person here who has picked out the 1 player who left either, I thought it was pretty clear who RA was referring to when he made the comment Will responded to? It seems like that's the only possible player that could possibly be implied about when making that comment. Teams who think our players are good to the tune of deals worth 8-figures are pretty likely to get their man regardless of whether we want them to or not, right now, that's just the reality of where we are as a club, whether we signed them 6 months ago or 3 years ago. It's not like we bent over backwards to sell him either, seems like we got a pretty bloody good deal for him considering his current level of ability. He has definitely been on the up and I hope for his sake that Emery hasn't just signed him for the sake of it, I hope it kicks on his career to the next level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikerman 1,386 2.4k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 I am reading that forum members want us to buy a defensive midfielder in the summer, and I totally agree, but what is the point Carrick won’t play with one. Look at all the goals we have conceded from outside the box with long shots, the number of times players are free to run at our backline, the confused expressions on our players faces when they are caught upfield and nobody has covered their run. Good teams are built from the back with a solid defence that retains its shape, ours is quite frankly a shambles and a lot of that is Carricks stubbornness in not putting a holding midfielder in front of our back four 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estonpidge 1,661 6.2k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 a CM who can break up play and is aware of his defensive responsibilities I think is the wish, Boateng/Kante are creatures of the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverbefore 13,623 28.1k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 34 minutes ago, pikerman said: I am reading that forum members want us to buy a defensive midfielder in the summer, and I totally agree, but what is the point Carrick won’t play with one. Look at all the goals we have conceded from outside the box with long shots, the number of times players are free to run at our backline, the confused expressions on our players faces when they are caught upfield and nobody has covered their run. Good teams are built from the back with a solid defence that retains its shape, ours is quite frankly a shambles and a lot of that is Carricks stubbornness in not putting a holding midfielder in front of our back four Howson and Barlaser both play as holding midfielders, albeit with license to get forward at times. But there's nearly always one of them in and around players when they get efforts off, they're just absolutely awful at snuffing out the danger. Look at Howson last night flapping around and not really getting a challenge in when he really should, but hes in the right position. Carrick was holding midfielder for Utd, he will know how important it is, but he will also want someone who, like him, was very good on the ball. That's why I think we should put a large amount of our budget towards it, it's difficult to find at any level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcar Rioja 7,760 7.6k Posted February 15, 2024 Share Posted February 15, 2024 2 hours ago, Bruce said: You have to look at a player's ability in the round, not as it is right now. There's a lot we don't know about the current squad but I reckon out of our current players their levels are something like this. Dieng - Top championship possibly lower Premier Glover - league one, lower championship. Clearly lost some confidence presently. Dijksteel - walking calamity Smith - Ok senior pro. Probably lower Championship these days McNair - decent Championship Fry - decent/top Championship Lenihan - Excellent senior pro, decent championship Clarke - coming back from injury but his record is as a top championship centre back RVDB - Premier league potential, probably decent championship right now Engel - hard to tell but somewhere between league 2 and lower Championship Hackney - Top championship with Premier league potential Howson - on the way out, probably lower championship at best Barlaser - probably decent championship but you need to build a team around him Jones - top championship but hampered by inconsistency Azaz - looks like a top championship player with possibly premier league potential McGree - top Championship, lower Premier league Latte Lath - shows signs of becoming a top championship striker but early days, probably lower championship right now Coburn - he's probably a lower championship player right now but could still improve a lot if he can get his injury permanently fixed. Silvera - League one, lower championship but could still improve a fair amount Forss - top Championship Out of loans who we could possibly buy O'Brien - coming back from injury but previously top championship / lower premier league Greenwood - yet to find his best position but definitely not a striker, probably lower championship level this season, Players we can't make a judgement on at this point Thomas, Bangura, Ayling, Gilbert, Hoppe My point is that our players are nowhere near as bad as recent results and performances make them look. We have been massively hit by injuries but a fully-fit squad looks like it ought to be able to compete for the playoffs. If we get it right this summer, there's no reason we can't start next season with a top 6 level squad. Reading through your assessment, which I largely agree with, there are a lot of "decent Championship" and "lower Championship" comments which to me means middling Championship with a few really good ones and a couple of League One assessments which adds up to a middling Championship side which is what we have become. As it happens I actually think a few of those are "potentially" better than that but tactically the team look about as organised as the Mad Hatters Tea Party at times, bereft of confidence and belief and as a consequence struggle to carry out instructions, adhering almost like Automatons to a script but they aren't all on the same page. at the same time It's nowhere near as bad as Woodgate's tenure but as time goes by it's starting to get that feeling. I don't think it's all the players fault, some it would appear haven't got the skill sets to play the roles they are being given, Greenwood as a Striker for instance or with others less subtle requirements like having the awareness and speed of thought to play out from the back when pressed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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