Boro v Plymouth 0-2

[Borodane 7,958 27.6k]

11 hours ago, Dynamo Kev said:

it would appear like that. but its true. he has his players thinking about to much, preventing them doing the basics. football is a simple game made difficult by idiots. 

Yeah I really don’t think that’s the issue. I think carrick is just poor at preparing the team for games. I suppose it’s something that he can learn. Tactically he seems fairly inept. 

[macapes 2,923 3.1k]

1 hour ago, Skinemrippers said:

The Chelsea match was certainly interesting in what Neville in particular was saying. He could see straight away that asking Howson to drop into defence isolated Rav on the right and was creating gaping holes in our defence. He picked it out straight away - we got away with it a couple of times and still Carrick didn’t change it. Then the inevitable goals came and game over. 

The worrying thing for me was Carricks comments. We’re not playing this system or that, we’re being fluid with our formation. And he’s saying the same again now with the lack of playing a striker - oh it’s fluid, false 9, we’ve done it before etc etc. this is what he needs to learn and put right. This group of players (all players?) need a system and to be very clear on their roles. They look utterly lost. 

Not seen the comments from Carrick, but the last thing we look is fluid and consistently sticking to the same 4231 is hardly being fluid.

Changes are made for occasional games - Leicester - but then we revert to the same system, just with random players in attack.  Hasn't worked well all season, but nothing concrete changes, just the names on the teamsheet.

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

23 minutes ago, Borodane said:

Yeah I really don’t think that’s the issue. I think carrick is just poor at preparing the team for games. I suppose it’s something that he can learn. Tactically he seems fairly inept. 

I wouldn't say he's poor. He's inconsistent. He's set up the team to beat decent teams like Leicester twice, Chelsea, nearly grab a draw at villa, West brom, Southampton plus we have dominated a couple of games against lower teams like Preston,  Cardiff and Sunderland. Not to mention the performances from last season. 

He's inconsistent as you'd expect from any new manager, same as a young player. He's been in the job less than a year and a half. We're going through a rough patch right now there's no doubt about that. But we've came out of one of those already this season, I just hope we can again because if we go into summer in this form things could get very difficult. 

[Erimus74 5,353 5.5k]

Seemed ironic, with the same clock ticking to full time last saturday you could see & hear red faction chanting, hearing the drummer, the very ones who were threatening to walk out in the 30th minute, yet after going two down in the 30th minute they stayed throughout the dire Boro performance in an almost deserted Riverside stadium

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

2 hours ago, Skinemrippers said:

The worrying thing for me was Carricks comments. We’re not playing this system or that, we’re being fluid with our formation. And he’s saying the same again now with the lack of playing a striker - oh it’s fluid, false 9, we’ve done it before etc etc. this is what he needs to learn and put right. This group of players (all players?) need a system and to be very clear on their roles. They look utterly lost. 

The problem with his "fluid system" is that it has become diarrhoea like in its consistency and stinking the place out. Players and Fans alike are all in an utter state of confusion and disbelief when suffering the consequences to the extent that its giving us all the trots.

I genuinely and sincerely hope that this isn't Carrick going off on one of those managerial career ending, eccentric, blinkered, stubborn melt downs.

[Smogzilla 9,473 7.1k]

The defending for the second goal is so unbelievably bad. Gyabi being able to turn in midfield, completely unchallenged, is criminal. Barlaser appears to be marking nobody. Rav is then done by Hardie. Awful stuff. 

[Borodane 7,958 27.6k]

41 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

I wouldn't say he's poor. He's inconsistent. He's set up the team to beat decent teams like Leicester twice, Chelsea, nearly grab a draw at villa, West brom, Southampton plus we have dominated a couple of games against lower teams like Preston,  Cardiff and Sunderland. Not to mention the performances from last season. 

He's inconsistent as you'd expect from any new manager, same as a young player. He's been in the job less than a year and a half. We're going through a rough patch right now there's no doubt about that. But we've came out of one of those already this season, I just hope we can again because if we go into summer in this form things could get very difficult. 

I find it a bit hard to mention the first Chelsea game and nobody would have complained if they had scored 4 goals. They could have been out of sight in the first half alone and tbh I think it’s more down to luck than preparation. Chelsea too their chances in the return leg and we saw how it then panned out. Teams sometimes get those kinds of wins. 
 

We are consistently poorly prepared and tactically carrick is beaten more often than not. Let’s hope he learns though. He’s got the rest of the season to prepare us for next season. I appreciate he hasn’t been helped by a very poor January transfer window. 

[Bruce 3,157 2.5k]

14 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

He's inconsistent as you'd expect from any new manager, same as a young player. He's been in the job less than a year and a half. We're going through a rough patch right now there's no doubt about that. But we've came out of one of those already this season, I just hope we can again because if we go into summer in this form things could get very difficult. 

So, I had a look at Aitor Karanka and Steve McClaren, both of whom were first time managers with us. Both of them were assistant managers for about 3 years beforehand as was Michael Carrick and Steve McKenna.

Carrick and McKenna served their apprenticeship under Solskjær, which it could be argued was the blind leading the novices. Karanka and McClaren served under elite level managers. 

When McKenna went to Ipswich in December 2021 he had an immediate impact which faded towards the end of the season. Highly respectable 23 games, won 11, draw 8, lose 4.  Just shy of 2ppg. The next season though he really got them motoring, having overseen a big rebuild in the summer.

When Carrick came to us, he inherited a really good team that was doing badly due to the breakdown with Wilder. They responded immediately and we had our best striker performance in 50 years. The team did tail off towards the end of the season. Unlike Mckenna he couldn't manage to rebuild the team.

It's tempting to look at Carrick and McKenna and wonder if they are somewhat of the Rooney and Rosenior ilk. Maybe McKenna was the talented coach and Carrick the face. That is *probably* unfair because in his second season, McKenna got an upgrade to his squad while Carrick got a significant downgrade. 

Same with McClaren and Karanka. Their squads got upgraded every season. 

So when you compare Carrick as a first time manager with those three, he may look significantly worse, but maybe it is simply the difficulty of dealing with a downgraded squad. Southgate suffered it when he started as did Woodgate. Both of those looked out of their depth from day 1. Carrick has looked out of his depth from time to time this season. As it turns out, Southgate is a perfectly good manager. Woodgate did ok at Bournemouth without ever really looking like he was cut out for the job. 

Also none of them had to deal with a season-long injury crisis.

Although I wasn't Carrick in, at the time, I'm not Carrick out now because if you try to look at the context, everything seems to point to him struggling to deal with a massively downgraded squad as a first time manager. I'm about 80% convinced that if you improve his squad over the summer that he will improve the results over and above the improvement in the players. I think he is potentially a top manager but there is a non-zero chance that he's another Rooney/Gerrard/Lampard type.

There are probably better managers out there who would get more out of an improved squad then Carrick would and would be willing to work under a head of football but I think at this point you have to stay on the Carrick train unless we completely implode over the end of the season. Every season, one team sinks like a stone in the final months of the Championship. This season, it could be us. We have 12 games left. If we don't manage 10 points in those games, I think Carrick's tenure ends. 

[SouthernSmoggie 5,315 7k]

1 hour ago, Borodane said:

Yeah I really don’t think that’s the issue. I think carrick is just poor at preparing the team for games. I suppose it’s something that he can learn. Tactically he seems fairly inept. 

Saturday was tactically criminal, I have no idea what he was thinking. Thomas was a disaster and needed subbing after 30 minutes - who gives a sh*t, he's a loanee anyway. Dieng is better than Glover - just f*cking play him, we're not good enough to leave our best keeper on the bench. The only area I can have some sympathy is due to injuries in centre midfield and being forced to play one of Silvera/Greenwood who are both very poor over Jones. 

It does smell like overthinking and trying to be too clever with the attack. 99% of fans would have moved the front four around to the below before the game, let alone after it clearly wasn't working.

               Forss

McGree - Azaz - Silvera

 

This is one reason I think you often see a 'new manager bounce' - the new guy comes in with fresh eyes and sticks everyone in their most natural position, keeps it simple, and the team instantly improves. 

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

23 minutes ago, Bruce said:

So, I had a look at Aitor Karanka and Steve McClaren, both of whom were first time managers with us. Both of them were assistant managers for about 3 years beforehand as was Michael Carrick and Steve McKenna.

Carrick and McKenna served their apprenticeship under Solskjær, which it could be argued was the blind leading the novices. Karanka and McClaren served under elite level managers. 

When McKenna went to Ipswich in December 2021 he had an immediate impact which faded towards the end of the season. Highly respectable 23 games, won 11, draw 8, lose 4.  Just shy of 2ppg. The next season though he really got them motoring, having overseen a big rebuild in the summer.

When Carrick came to us, he inherited a really good team that was doing badly due to the breakdown with Wilder. They responded immediately and we had our best striker performance in 50 years. The team did tail off towards the end of the season. Unlike Mckenna he couldn't manage to rebuild the team.

It's tempting to look at Carrick and McKenna and wonder if they are somewhat of the Rooney and Rosenior ilk. Maybe McKenna was the talented coach and Carrick the face. That is *probably* unfair because in his second season, McKenna got an upgrade to his squad while Carrick got a significant downgrade. 

Same with McClaren and Karanka. Their squads got upgraded every season. 

So when you compare Carrick as a first time manager with those three, he may look significantly worse, but maybe it is simply the difficulty of dealing with a downgraded squad. Southgate suffered it when he started as did Woodgate. Both of those looked out of their depth from day 1. Carrick has looked out of his depth from time to time this season. As it turns out, Southgate is a perfectly good manager. Woodgate did ok at Bournemouth without ever really looking like he was cut out for the job. 

Also none of them had to deal with a season-long injury crisis.

Although I wasn't Carrick in, at the time, I'm not Carrick out now because if you try to look at the context, everything seems to point to him struggling to deal with a massively downgraded squad as a first time manager. I'm about 80% convinced that if you improve his squad over the summer that he will improve the results over and above the improvement in the players. I think he is potentially a top manager but there is a non-zero chance that he's another Rooney/Gerrard/Lampard type.

There are probably better managers out there who would get more out of an improved squad then Carrick would and would be willing to work under a head of football but I think at this point you have to stay on the Carrick train unless we completely implode over the end of the season. Every season, one team sinks like a stone in the final months of the Championship. This season, it could be us. We have 12 games left. If we don't manage 10 points in those games, I think Carrick's tenure ends. 

Pretty much agree with all that but it's the tactics that concern me both in preparation and in-game. It's blindingly obvious now that opposition Managers have sussed him out in that press and close us down from the front and we buckle and collapse. Add to that defensively we have never looked assured or solid and only by outscoring opponents last season courtesy of having probably the two best Strikers at the time in the Championship did we amass points. 

The bottom line is that a Manager in all walks of life has to manage with the equipment and tools he has available. You can't deliver an order two weeks late on the premise of "if only I had the GXL packing machine instead of an old L model I could have delivered on time".

He can't seemingly outwit his opposite numbers yet they can read him like a book, that's not down to inexperience that is down to poor management and/or an inflated or at best misplaced opinion of himself and his Plan "A". He seems incapable of effectively changing things around during games especially at half time. His Substitutions are becoming real head scratchers both in personnel and timing. Some of it can be put down to inexperience but he has played under and been coached himself by some of the best in the game so he should have enough football experience to fall back on plus he has said previously that he still speaks to Fergie.

Every game is different, every situation is different yet he stubbornly refuses to or more worryingly can't see when and where things are going wrong during games. The way his teams are being set up now is raising eyebrows even before a ball has been kicked, if the even more so inexperienced fans can see it then it becomes a problem. Now it could be that it's a case of we all agreed how we would set up and the style of play and others were responsible for finding the pieces of the jigsaw and he's proving a point in which case it's job done but it's not very team spirited if as we are led to believe everything is joined up behind the scenes.

Hoping to get 10 points from now until the end of the season could be a huge ask based on Saturdays ineptitude on and off the pitch. That we even contemplating it is something else.

[wilsoncgp 10,215 20k]

1 hour ago, Smogzilla said:

The defending for the second goal is so unbelievably bad. Gyabi being able to turn in midfield, completely unchallenged, is criminal. Barlaser appears to be marking nobody. Rav is then done by Hardie. Awful stuff. 

Think apart from maybe showing Hardie onto his weaker foot, Rav is on a bit of a hiding to nothing when it reaches him. Hardie takes it well, I think. No surprise that it comes from problems in midfield though.

[Smogzilla 9,473 7.1k]

Just now, wilsoncgp said:

Think apart from maybe showing Hardie onto his weaker foot, Rav is on a bit of a hiding to nothing when it reaches him. Hardie takes it well, I think. No surprise that it comes from problems in midfield though.

He could be a little tighter but, as you say,  it looks like he's thrown off by Gyabi being all alone in the middle. Regardless of whose playing that's unacceptable at this level.

[wilsoncgp 10,215 20k]

1 minute ago, Smogzilla said:

He could be a little tighter but, as you say,  it looks like he's thrown off by Gyabi being all alone in the middle. Regardless of whose playing that's unacceptable at this level.

Actually watching it back, I'm looking at McNair's position and I wonder that if by sitting so deep, he's forced Rav back to cover for Hardie, maybe expecting the pass to be released quicker. He could have probably just stood his ground and blocked the pass but if it gets played by him on his other side then McNair is playing him onside.

Barlaser's role is probably the most frustrating of all though, isn't it. Further up, we've tried to close down and cut the passing lanes. The only pass that's on for Randell is to Gyabi and it's a simple one. The ball comes to Gyabi, Barlaser is not marking him. He turns with the ball, takes another touch and Barlaser doesn't close him down. If he doesn't close down, he can at least try to cut the pass out to Hardie and he doesn't do that either. He's just watching the game go by.

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

18 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

Think apart from maybe showing Hardie onto his weaker foot, Rav is on a bit of a hiding to nothing when it reaches him. Hardie takes it well, I think. No surprise that it comes from problems in midfield though.

I might be being too critical, but is glover too close to his near post too? The amount of space the player has to place his shot into the far post is incredible, it didn't even need to be in the corner.

[wilsoncgp 10,215 20k]

1 minute ago, Neverbefore said:

I might be being too critical, but is glover too close to his near post too? The amount of space the player has to place his shot into the far post is incredible, it didn't even need to be in the corner.

From the angle behind the goal, I can see why Glover moves across to cover his near post but he doesn't adjust his position when Hardie cuts inside. He can't protect his whole goal but it seems to me like the bigger issue is the side he gets beaten on. The point where the shot gets taken seems to show him pretty much inline with VDB which seems the only place he shouldn't be.