Stoke v Boro 2-0

[ManBearPig 2,325 4.2k]

Wasn’t Scott coming in meaning that it wasn’t reliant on a specific coach staying? 

Im sure I recall it being mentioned that we’ll find coaches to fit our model, rather than the club adapting to fit theirs?

Carrick isn’t irreplaceable and bar the 6 game win streak this season we would be in the bottom 3.

no matter the players, in how we set up we just aren’t that good.

We haven’t looked dangerous for ages now and yet he still persists with not changing the system, only the parts of it. 
 

[Changing Times 16,078 23.1k]

29 minutes ago, ManBearPig said:

no matter the players, in how we set up we just aren’t that good.

See, this to me is incorrect.  We know that with some different players we were good but it was last season of course.  Nobody we signed in the summer is at the same level as the players we lost at the end of last season.  VDB is a cracking prospect but his performance level isn't that of Akpom, Archer or Giles at the moment, and he's probably the best of the bunch.  I think it's fair enough to criticise Carrick for not adapting to the squad he has to work with but to say that no matter the players we just aren't that good in his set up is wrong.  We know we can be even if we aren't at the moment.   

[Blanco 5,637 7.2k]

4 hours ago, Skinemrippers said:

Just back from the match. Really awful once again - no energy, fight or creativity. Honestly the players look like they don’t care half of the time, Carrick stood on the sidelines similarly showing no energy or passion. It’s just rubbish. I don’t want to see Thomas or Ayling again. I usually stick up for Barlaser but he needs dropping for his own good now. He has no confidence at all, try one of the kids in there or play McGree in the middle. 
 

Carrick needs to play ugly now.  Go 5 at the back, keep it tight. A clean sheet (don’t laugh) would maybe give a little bit of confidence. Got to start somewhere to stop the rot. 

Great post. It’s not exactly rocket science 

[macapes 2,923 3.1k]

44 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

See, this to me is incorrect.  We know that with some different players we were good but it was last season of course.  Nobody we signed in the summer is at the same level as the players we lost at the end of last season.  VDB is a cracking prospect but his performance level isn't that of Akpom, Archer or Giles at the moment, and he's probably the best of the bunch.  I think it's fair enough to criticise Carrick for not adapting to the squad he has to work with but to say that no matter the players we just aren't that good in his set up is wrong.  We know we can be even if we aren't at the moment.   

Yes, but if your system needs a player in those positions to have a season like Akpom, Archer and Giles had, there's a problem with the system too. 

That was always going to be unreplaceable, yet we're still here, with the same system, without the necessary adaptation.

[Changing Times 16,078 23.1k]

7 minutes ago, macapes said:

Yes, but if your system needs a player in those positions to have a season like Akpom, Archer and Giles had, there's a problem with the system too. 

That was always going to be unreplaceable, yet we're still here, with the same system, without the necessary adaptation.

They had good seasons, and in Akpom's case a very good season, but I wouldn't go further than that.  20 or more goals in the Championship isn't that unusual.  Three players did it last season, five the season before, four the season before that, three prior, and nine in 2018/19.  So that's 24 players in five seasons who have topped 20 goals in the Championship.  It might stand out for us but I'd say that's more as a result of the dour football we've watched for the last decade and more.  Similarly, Giles 11 assists is a very nice return but it's not like it's well ahead of anyone in recent times.  There are already 4 players with 11 or more this season for example - one each for the top four sides as it happens.  Anyway, those players shouldn't be irreplaceable for the obvious reason that we were able to get them in the first place.  We didn't spend a fortune to get them, and we apparently tried to buy the two who weren't already our players last summer.  I mean, Giles is back in the Championship right now isn't he. 

What we saw last season were the elements of what a good attacking side should look like, but it wasn't out of the ordinary for those types of teams, or that calibre of side.  Compare it to this season, and our top goalscorers have 5 goals.  That's five different players admittedly but we got 5 goals each out of Ramsey and Watmore last season who were bit part players.  Our top assisters have 6, and both of them no longer play for us.  After that the next highest is 3.  I think there is a reason that we have the second worst total of goals to expected goals this season, it's because we lack that quality we lost in the summer.  The thing is, even if we say that Carrick needs to adapt, none of the current players are going to suddenly become consistent goalscorers, at least based on what we've seen so far.  And I don't believe that tactical changes alone will improve that.  We create chances already, lots of them, we don't take them though, and that's holding us back this season.  I also think that this lack of quality in attack is hurting us defensively as well because we can't threaten teams in the way we were able to last season.   This season we have 17 goals in 17 home games, last season we got 46 in 23, and that was after a poor start under Wilder.  That's a massive difference.  I wouldn't be worried about playing us.  Even on a good day we might not manage more than 1 goal at home so what pressure can we really put teams under.  Last season I reckon some teams were beaten before kick off, this season if there's a team beaten before kick off it's more likely to be us than anyone else.

[LinoJo3 5,823 13.6k]

3 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

Wasn’t Scott coming in meaning that it wasn’t reliant on a specific coach staying? 

Im sure I recall it being mentioned that we’ll find coaches to fit our model, rather than the club adapting to fit theirs?

Carrick isn’t irreplaceable and bar the 6 game win streak this season we would be in the bottom 3.

no matter the players, in how we set up we just aren’t that good.

We haven’t looked dangerous for ages now and yet he still persists with not changing the system, only the parts of it. 
 

Danks will be our manager should Carrick leave for whatever reason before the end of the season. Just my opinion but I’d be pretty certain it would happen.

[Bruce 3,157 2.5k]

Taken as a complete package, that was the worst match of the season. We've had worse performances, worse results, made worse mistakes, had worse individual performances by a player, picked worse starting teams, worse tactics, made worse substitutes. But yesterday was a solid 0/10 across the board.

There isn't a way forward from yesterday that doesn't start with change. There's no way to look at the performances this season and say that it will come good if we just keep on improving on what we're currently doing.

Usually the change is the manager. I don't think that makes sense at this point. After Plymouth, I said much the same but did say that if he didn't manage at least 10 points from the rest of the season then his position becomes untenable. I still think that's right but I also don't think he can survive many more complete failures like yesterday. 

When a new manager comes in, there's a reset and that's usually positive for most players. Players need confidence and the reset gives them something to believe in. Carrick and co need to reset the players. Carrying on as she goes and waiting for a lucky break to kick-start our performances won't work. We've had lucky breaks: against Leicester we could and should have been 2-0 down within 20 minutes but we got lucky and won. That didn't help. Against Stoke we had 62%. Every team has realised that all they need to do is give us the ball and we can't deal with it.

I suppose all you can do at this point is hope. We have enough quality in the players to be comfortably mid-table and despite everything I don't see us going 12 games without winning. 

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

8 minutes ago, Bruce said:

Taken as a complete package, that was the worst match of the season. We've had worse performances, worse results, made worse mistakes, had worse individual performances by a player, picked worse starting teams, worse tactics, made worse substitutes. But yesterday was a solid 0/10 across the board.

There isn't a way forward from yesterday that doesn't start with change. There's no way to look at the performances this season and say that it will come good if we just keep on improving on what we're currently doing.

Usually the change is the manager. I don't think that makes sense at this point. After Plymouth, I said much the same but did say that if he didn't manage at least 10 points from the rest of the season then his position becomes untenable. I still think that's right but I also don't think he can survive many more complete failures like yesterday. 

When a new manager comes in, there's a reset and that's usually positive for most players. Players need confidence and the reset gives them something to believe in. Carrick and co need to reset the players. Carrying on as she goes and waiting for a lucky break to kick-start our performances won't work. We've had lucky breaks: against Leicester we could and should have been 2-0 down within 20 minutes but we got lucky and won. That didn't help. Against Stoke we had 62%. Every team has realised that all they need to do is give us the ball and we can't deal with it.

I suppose all you can do at this point is hope. We have enough quality in the players to be comfortably mid-table and despite everything I don't see us going 12 games without winning. 

I think Sheffield Wednesday was worse but there isn't much in it unfortunately.

The common denominator in all this for me is a manager who is showing a clear case of being very limited. Rooney had a great spell for a while as did Lampard but when they had to deal with fresh challenges, as there always will be in management, there was nothing left in their box and we are witnessing the same with Carrick. We saw similar with Wilder and his system and again with Karanka, when their plan stops working there is nothing behind the veneer.

Ironically his best results this season have come from when he did actually change things but those changes were forced by the quality of opposition rather than by design. When he stuck to his preferred playing it out way at Chelsea we were destroyed, it hasn't worked since with all belief and confidence in it now obliterated within the squad. Yet he keeps doing the same things the same way but expecting different results.

[macapes 2,923 3.1k]

4 hours ago, Changing Times said:

They had good seasons, and in Akpom's case a very good season, but I wouldn't go further than that.  20 or more goals in the Championship isn't that unusual.  Three players did it last season, five the season before, four the season before that, three prior, and nine in 2018/19.  So that's 24 players in five seasons who have topped 20 goals in the Championship.  It might stand out for us but I'd say that's more as a result of the dour football we've watched for the last decade and more.  Similarly, Giles 11 assists is a very nice return but it's not like it's well ahead of anyone in recent times.  There are already 4 players with 11 or more this season for example - one each for the top four sides as it happens.  Anyway, those players shouldn't be irreplaceable for the obvious reason that we were able to get them in the first place.  We didn't spend a fortune to get them, and we apparently tried to buy the two who weren't already our players last summer.  I mean, Giles is back in the Championship right now isn't he. 

What we saw last season were the elements of what a good attacking side should look like, but it wasn't out of the ordinary for those types of teams, or that calibre of side.  Compare it to this season, and our top goalscorers have 5 goals.  That's five different players admittedly but we got 5 goals each out of Ramsey and Watmore last season who were bit part players.  Our top assisters have 6, and both of them no longer play for us.  After that the next highest is 3.  I think there is a reason that we have the second worst total of goals to expected goals this season, it's because we lack that quality we lost in the summer.  The thing is, even if we say that Carrick needs to adapt, none of the current players are going to suddenly become consistent goalscorers, at least based on what we've seen so far.  And I don't believe that tactical changes alone will improve that.  We create chances already, lots of them, we don't take them though, and that's holding us back this season.  I also think that this lack of quality in attack is hurting us defensively as well because we can't threaten teams in the way we were able to last season.   This season we have 17 goals in 17 home games, last season we got 46 in 23, and that was after a poor start under Wilder.  That's a massive difference.  I wouldn't be worried about playing us.  Even on a good day we might not manage more than 1 goal at home so what pressure can we really put teams under.  Last season I reckon some teams were beaten before kick off, this season if there's a team beaten before kick off it's more likely to be us than anyone else.

Off the top my head those scorers include Gyokeres, Akpom, Mitrovic, Piroe, Breton Diaz, Solanke, Toney, Armstrong, Sharp, Gayle.  Why can I name them?  Because they all had exceptional seasons. They would also cost a fortune to replace after those seasons.

Just because there are players who do it regularly, doesn't make it easy to replace them when you lose one. Just because Akpom cost us peanuts, doesn't mean we can pick up a 20 goal a season player for a reasonable fee. Be lovely if we could, obviously. 

But even then, it's not purely about scoring goals.  Akpom's role was more than that, he had an exceptional all round season and was one of the main reasons the system worked, he was the fulcrum. Similarly Giles wasn't purely about assists, his attacking threat pushed teams back, drew defenders in, gave us space to play and a decent cross occasionally. He enabled us to play our way.

He's back in the championship because he's not good enough for the PL and Hull are setting money on fire. Not sure how that relates to us.

It's unusual that you are going with the simple goals or assists as sole arbiter of their value to us. Your takes are normally more nuanced.

Otherwise, I agree with the fact that our toothless attack is causing some of our defensive issues, but last I looked our defense wasn't actually much worse than last year ( recent results may have tipped that).  We keep shipping the same sort of goals though, something you'd think a tactical tweak could do something about. If we can't score, at least shore up the defence.

Obviously without Akpom/Archer our attack is poorer - any team would be. The steadfast refusal to play Forss up top continues to befuddle me, given our fitness issues, mind.  30 odd games in though and it's clear that our attackers lack the incisiveness to play this way - and that opposition managers know exactly how to stifle us.

A tactical change might not fix it, but sticking with the same thing that doesn't work, that hasn't worked all season, just seems inept. Azaz, Forss, McGree and ELL should be an attacking unit you can get something out of.

If we hadn't fluked the undeserved win against Leicester, we'd be in serious trouble right now. But we'll stick with the same tactics and see how low we can go.

[Bruce 3,157 2.5k]

25 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

I think Sheffield Wednesday was worse but there isn't much in it unfortunately.

Wednesday was a worse first half and some individually worse performances but at least we turned it around, partially, in the second half. Yesterday there was nothing positive anywhere across the board.

26 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

The common denominator in all this for me is a manager who is showing a clear case of being very limited.

I'm not ready to make that judgement yet. It does feel like Woodgate: a manager who has an ideal image in his head of what he wants who doesn't know how to get there. I think last season led us down the garden path. Because we had Akpom playing at a Champions League level and Giles who was on his wavelength we were playing on cheat mode. When we had to get real at the end of the season, it turned out that Carrick had just got very, very lucky. 

Sometimes being lucky is the worst thing that can happen. He tried to replicate last season with players who aren't capable of it and failed. However, the season has been so fubared by injuries that you could argue for a long, long time that it would work when the injury crisis eased. The crisis hasn't eased so Carrick can still plausibly think the problem is the injuries, not the system. 

Even so, he still has to set up his team up to make the best of who is available and he has failed to do that.

[Downsouth 8,161 39.1k]

As supporters we all know that we get behind the club through thick and thin because they are our club and none of us can walk away completely can we?

Trouble is we are going through a period of both thick and thin combined which is difficult to deal with and we do not know where and in which direction the pendelum is swinging.

Some members may have seen this right from the start of the season (results clearly showed) but many of us me included did not forsee just where we are right now and because we thought that there would be some visible improvement to our overall game plan for this season has now become quite alarming for all of us especially MFC itself!

Roller Coaster? I just want to get off as I am feeling a little bit icky!

Still we can now look ahead to the RB game against Norwich I suppose🤔

[Neverbefore 15,138 29.4k]

7 hours ago, macapes said:

Yes, but if your system needs a player in those positions to have a season like Akpom, Archer and Giles had, there's a problem with the system too. 

That was always going to be unreplaceable, yet we're still here, with the same system, without the necessary adaptation.

None of those players have gone on to replicate the form they had here with their new clubs. So does that not say the system we had got the best out of them as well as the other way around?

[HoyteForLeftBack 228 2.7k]

Just gone back to my happy place and watched last seasons highlights of boro beating Norwich 5-1. God we were good to watch 😔😔

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

1 minute ago, HoyteForLeftBack said:

Just gone back to my happy place and watched last seasons highlights of boro beating Norwich 5-1. God we were good to watch 😔😔

That was the last time we were in a happy place, we took our foot off the gas after that and the rest sadly is history and the story of Carrick's fall from grace!

[ManBearPig 2,325 4.2k]

9 hours ago, Changing Times said:

See, this to me is incorrect.  We know that with some different players we were good but it was last season of course.  Nobody we signed in the summer is at the same level as the players we lost at the end of last season.  VDB is a cracking prospect but his performance level isn't that of Akpom, Archer or Giles at the moment, and he's probably the best of the bunch.  I think it's fair enough to criticise Carrick for not adapting to the squad he has to work with but to say that no matter the players we just aren't that good in his set up is wrong.  We know we can be even if we aren't at the moment.   

You’re right, but I was meaning this season. I’ve written off last season as an anomaly due to him having Akpom, Archer, Giles and Ramsay. Was Carrick making them good or were they making Carrick look better than he was? 
 

The fact we still conceded goals and had to rely on out scoring the opposition tells me he’s had two seasons of a soft and weak defence that hasn’t been addressed