Stoke v Boro 2-0

[Neverbefore 15,137 29.4k]

15 minutes ago, ManBearPig said:

You’re right, but I was meaning this season. I’ve written off last season as an anomaly due to him having Akpom, Archer, Giles and Ramsay. Was Carrick making them good or were they making Carrick look better than he was? 
 

The fact we still conceded goals and had to rely on out scoring the opposition tells me he’s had two seasons of a soft and weak defence that hasn’t been addressed 

The evidence so far since those players have moved on suggest that Carrick made them play above their abilities. For akpom there's years of evidence of this before he came to us too. They were good championship players, that's all. Not these amazing world beaters that carricks critics like to make out. 

Same thing happened with karanka. You'd think he had this super squad of players that he needed to get promoted when the reality is only one or two max went on to show they were any better than championship level

You need premier league quality players to get promoted from this league 9 times out of 10, and we don't have them atm

[Mfcdanny 1,101 1.1k]

1 hour ago, Neverbefore said:

None of those players have gone on to replicate the form they had here with their new clubs. So does that not say the system we had got the best out of them as well as the other way around?

You could say that yes. But they have all went on to play at a higher level. 

[Neverbefore 15,137 29.4k]

Just now, Mfcdanny said:

You could say that yes. But they have all went on to play at a higher level. 

One of which is back down here (Giles), 3 of which aren't playing (akpom, Archer and ramsey) and one of which is off on early retirement (steffen). 

[Bruce 3,157 2.5k]

31 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

The evidence so far since those players have moved on suggest that Carrick made them play above their abilities. For akpom there's years of evidence of this before he came to us too. They were good championship players, that's all. Not these amazing world beaters that carricks critics like to make out. 

Same thing happened with karanka. You'd think he had this super squad of players that he needed to get promoted when the reality is only one or two max went on to show they were any better than championship level

You need premier league quality players to get promoted from this league 9 times out of 10, and we don't have them atm

I don't think so. Akpom scores goals for Ajax whenever they let him play. Giles looks to have picked up where he left off at Hull. 

I agree that Carrick's system makes attacking players look better I  the same way that AK's system makes defenders look better. 

I think Giles is a classic case of too good for the Championship but not good enough for the Premier. Akpom is caught in limbo. Archer is good enough for the Premier but playing in the wrong team. Ramsey is made of glass. 

Personally, I think the attacking 4231/325 that De Zerbi pioneered and Carrick copied has been rumbled in general. 

 

[Fab4TT 42 105]

17 hours ago, Changing Times said:

Ok but what has what a manager said about a Middlesbrough side under a different manager got to do with the Boro side today?  That's the bit I'm confused about.

This is without me being combative CT.

Whatever Carrick's tactically employing at home, with a back 4, it seems to have at its core an intention to retain the ball, recycle the ball, and attack with a low risk of losing possession. I'm not saying it'll never work, but it needs 'performing' players to execute it. 

My philosophical question is; is this down to the clubs history, culture, training facilities and vision. I.e is there a reputation that proceeds us? Hence why I gave the historic example. I don't think opposition views will change week in/week out.

I don't blame Carrick. Do I blame Scott/Gibson? Hard to say. They've certainly not attracted/found those players, but that's not to say they haven't tried. Maybe if we we're in the know, we'd be aware that there wasn't the money in the summer window, and the players weren't available or within our budget in the winter window. It looks like we're saving our pennies for this summer.

There is a risk to football, its easier not to lose than it is to win tactically, and maybe it's our pride/vision that's preventing us from seeing that.

Edited March 3, 2024 by Fab4TT

[Neverbefore 15,137 29.4k]

20 minutes ago, Bruce said:

I don't think so. Akpom scores goals for Ajax whenever they let him play. Giles looks to have picked up where he left off at Hull. 

I agree that Carrick's system makes attacking players look better I  the same way that AK's system makes defenders look better. 

I think Giles is a classic case of too good for the Championship but not good enough for the Premier. Akpom is caught in limbo. Archer is good enough for the Premier but playing in the wrong team. Ramsey is made of glass. 

Personally, I think the attacking 4231/325 that De Zerbi pioneered and Carrick copied has been rumbled in general. 

 

Brighton another excellent example of what I'm talking about. So many of their players have moved on after looking like world beaters in their system but out of their depth when they've moved any higher up. The system is do important for players and ours happened to get the best out of out team last season. 

[TheJew 3,662 6.1k]

42 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Brighton another excellent example of what I'm talking about. So many of their players have moved on after looking like world beaters in their system but out of their depth when they've moved any higher up. The system is do important for players and ours happened to get the best out of out team last season. 

So we found a system last season that suited our players that we had last season.

Surely we should do the same this season? At the moment we have last season's system, with this season's players. It clearly isn't working.

Why isn't it working? No Akpom or equivalent. No Giles or equivalent. No Ramsey or equivalent. No Archer or equivalent. Now no Crooks or equivalent.

Watmore also contributed last season in the first half, I'd argue Silvera is his closest replacement in output.

The players bought or loaned do not work in last season's system. So either recruitment have considerably pooped, or Carrick has to change the system to suit the players that are bought. Neither of these approaches suggest to me that the recruitment team are aligned to the management team, hence the ponyturd performances and season.

[AnglianRed 7,883 18.1k]

2 hours ago, Neverbefore said:

None of those players have gone on to replicate the form they had here with their new clubs. So does that not say the system we had got the best out of them as well as the other way around?

That wasn't the point though.

Players go to different clubs, have to play with new team mates, possibly under a different system and fail to recreate the performances that garnered attention in the first place. Fairly common problem.

What macapes was saying is WE never replaced the critical parts that made OUR system work and, worse, failed to find a system that worked with the players we had available.

Last season was clearly a happy accident where the loan signings we made, plus the return of a rejuvenated Akpom, were a match made in heaven. But apparently it was not a sustainable arrangement and we can't afford to permanently sign, or keep loaning players of that quality.

Which begs the question - why haven't the manager & coaches been able to identify an effective system our squad can actually play to?

 

[AnglianRed 7,883 18.1k]

2 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

You’re right, but I was meaning this season. I’ve written off last season as an anomaly due to him having Akpom, Archer, Giles and Ramsay. Was Carrick making them good or were they making Carrick look better than he was? 
 

The fact we still conceded goals and had to rely on out scoring the opposition tells me he’s had two seasons of a soft and weak defence that hasn’t been addressed 

Fully agree.

I mean its great that he likes to play attacking football, but even last season our defence was terrible (conceded about 20 goals more than any of the other top 6 teams) and led to us dropping points where maybe we shouldn't have. Extrapolating from that we could have finished higher up and not have had to face Coventry in the play-offs.

Speaking of which, our games against them should have had alarm bells ringing about Carrick's limitations.

 

[Neverbefore 15,137 29.4k]

13 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

That wasn't the point though.

Players go to different clubs, have to play with new team mates, possibly under a different system and fail to recreate the performances that garnered attention in the first place. Fairly common problem.

What macapes was saying is WE never replaced the critical parts that made OUR system work and, worse, failed to find a system that worked with the players we had available.

Last season was clearly a happy accident where the loan signings we made, plus the return of a rejuvenated Akpom, were a match made in heaven. But apparently it was not a sustainable arrangement and we can't afford to permanently sign, or keep loaning players of that quality.

Which begs the question - why haven't the manager & coaches been able to identify an effective system our squad can actually play to?

 

No, what he said was -

"That was always going to be unreplaceable, yet we're still here, with the same system, without the necessary adaptation."

And my point is no, they're not unreplaceable. Those players were great in our system but there's no evidence since to say that they're at a level that's unobtainable. I agree that we haven't replaced those players adequately, that wasn't my point. My point was that it's not impossible to find players who can fit the system just as well, we just didn't do a good job of it. 

[Redcar Rioja 9,086 8.8k]

The coming midweek game against Norwich has a similar feel to the Southampton game earlier in the season when Carrick was under pressure for the first time and desperately needed a result. I suspect he will go with a back five again and look for breaks and set plays. It has worked in other games for him so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets something out of this game but and it's a huge BUT, I'm not sure the Players are buying into what it is he is trying to do anymore, the body language of many of them yesterday was appalling. This is a far bigger ask than that Southampton game when the majority of fans hearts were still with him.

[TheJew 3,662 6.1k]

2 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

The coming midweek game against Norwich has a similar feel to the Southampton game earlier in the season when Carrick was under pressure for the first time and desperately needed a result. I suspect he will go with a back five again and look for breaks and set plays. It has worked in other games for him so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets something out of this game but and it's a huge BUT, I'm not sure the Players are buying into what it is he is trying to do anymore, the body language of many of them yesterday was appalling. This is a far bigger ask than that Southampton game when the majority of fans hearts were still with him.

Concede early and the atmosphere will turn toxic real quick.

[Skinemrippers 1,168 1.2k]

14 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

The coming midweek game against Norwich has a similar feel to the Southampton game earlier in the season when Carrick was under pressure for the first time and desperately needed a result. I suspect he will go with a back five again and look for breaks and set plays. It has worked in other games for him so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets something out of this game but and it's a huge BUT, I'm not sure the Players are buying into what it is he is trying to do anymore, the body language of many of them yesterday was appalling. This is a far bigger ask than that Southampton game when the majority of fans hearts were still with him.

I’ve been saying the same. The Southampton game was one of our best atmospheres actually, you just felt that everyone was still behind Carrick and desperately wanted him to succeed. I’m not sure we’re as united as a fan base now. Start slowly and it could turn very sour. 

[Skinemrippers 1,168 1.2k]

27 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

 

I mean its great that he likes to play attacking football….

 

I keep reading this but honestly, it’s not by any stretch of the imagination attacking football and I can’t imagine Carrick is watching our walking pace build up play, side to side passing, no shots and thinking “yep, bad spell but this is my philosophy”. It’s genuinely boring to watch. 

[Neverbefore 15,137 29.4k]

Just now, Skinemrippers said:

I keep reading this but honestly, it’s not by any stretch of the imagination attacking football and I can’t imagine Carrick is watching our walking pace build up play, side to side passing, no shots and thinking “yep, bad spell but this is my philosophy”. It’s genuinely boring to watch. 

We played the same way last season, but we were able to flip the switch between possession play and going for the throat in a matter of 1 or 2 passes. We don't have that this season, due to both personel and this mental fragility that has permeated throughout the entire team. The mental side of things is the most troubling part to our performances imo