1 minute ago, Bruce said:

I don't think we are.

Against Leeds, other than Rav I don't see any of our nominal 1st 11 who would be nailed on starters for them. Doak at his best would be pushing for a start while Hackney & Morris would be in rotation for midfield. Likewise Lath, Conway and Azaz would make for a really strong bench.

Burnley harder to tell because they have so many injuries. Again, Rav would probably make their 1st 11 and they are desperately short of a centre forward so ELL or Conway would likely start. Hackney and Morris would be good backups to Cullen and Brownhill & Doak would be frequently used from the bench against tired defenders. 

Sheffield Utd?  Wilder has switched to 4 at the back this season. Azaz woujld get the #10 role over O'Hare who hasn't really done much. Hackney and Morris would be on the bench. ELL or Conway would start as a striker and Doak would be pushing for a start. Rav would be pushing for a start. 

Basically, of those 3, I doubt more than 2 of our players make their best starting 11. 

All three play 4-2-3-1 so it's fairly easy to make direct comparisons.

This is how I see it too. Our two strikers have done a good job so far, but only one can play. Azaz is great when we're dominating but may as well not play it were not tbh. Doak is electric but is 19 and will have poor games and his decision making is just not there all the time. Our left side is also hampered by injury (mcgree) and inconsistency (burgzorg). I love the Morris and Hackney pivot but as soon as one drops out it becomes incredibly less effective, especially against decent sides. Leeds were able to bring on ampadu from the bench ffs. Clarke and edmundson are both solid but we're missing our more cultured and progressive defenders to partner one of them. Both full backs have good games and poor games, zero consistency amongst them.

We all thought we had a shot at the autos but having seen how some of these other sides are performing both against us and against other teams, its clear there are at least a couple of squads ahead of us atm. Jan could help us change that (fb and cm in particular) but it will be more in view of having enough to get into and win the play offs than to catch up with the better teams in the league.

The commentators said it all last night. Apparently we gave Leeds more problems than any other side this season, when in reality we weren't great. If Leeds can win 3,1 fairly easily against their toughest test, they're just going to ease their way out of this league. And rightfully so - their squad is much better than ours.

10 minutes ago, Bruce said:

I don't think we are.

Against Leeds, other than Rav I don't see any of our nominal 1st 11 who would be nailed on starters for them. Doak at his best would be pushing for a start while Hackney & Morris would be in rotation for midfield. Likewise Lath, Conway and Azaz would make for a really strong bench.

Burnley harder to tell because they have so many injuries. Again, Rav would probably make their 1st 11 and they are desperately short of a centre forward so ELL or Conway would likely start. Hackney and Morris would be good backups to Cullen and Brownhill & Doak would be frequently used from the bench against tired defenders. 

Sheffield Utd?  Wilder has switched to 4 at the back this season. Azaz woujld get the #10 role over O'Hare who hasn't really done much. Hackney and Morris would be on the bench. ELL or Conway would start as a striker and Doak would be pushing for a start. Rav would be pushing for a start. 

Basically, of those 3, I doubt more than 2 of our players make their best starting 11. 

All three play 4-2-3-1 so it's fairly easy to make direct comparisons.

RVDB, Morris, Hackney, Azaz, Doak and ELL walk into any of those sides. McGree, Fry, Edmundson, Clarke and Conway would at least make the bench of most of those sides. I don't disagree that other sides are stronger in certain positions but as the stats show very few (if any) are as good as us in the forward positions.

Edited December 11, 20241 yr by Humpty

And for those going on about the missed opportunities against the lower teams - yes this is relevant. But also, out of the other teams in the top 7, we have earned 4 points from a possible 18. This points to the fact that there are better squads in this league. 

11 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

Indeed. We're missing a key player in Morris, for sure. And this game had a real midfield battle, they made us look very average at times from good organised pressing. 

But other than that, tonight we had more than enough in that squad to get something from the game. I think Carrick makes our squad look worse than it is sometimes too by not being able to handle his substitutions in an effective way. He has more options than he ends up showing and he could be more proactive in his changes. I also think Conway for Azaz was a poor change. McGree was finally in the game second half too and he takes him off too.

Leeds are a better side for me but I don't think the gap is massive. It's probably the biggest gap in quality ahead of us in the division but they, like everyone else at this level, are still just a good Championship team and not much more than that. For me, anyway.

I hate to say it but I get the impression Leeds look to me like a classic case of a parachute payment club that goes back up in year 2. usually at least one team usually does and they also the last one left out that relegation class of '23, wouldn't like to come across them in the play offs

3 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

And for those going on about the missed opportunities against the lower teams - yes this is relevant. But also, out of the other teams in the top 7, we have earned 4 points from a possible 18. This points to the fact that there are better squads in this league. 

 

Blackburn and Sunderland 100% do not have better squads than us and that accounts for half of the dropped points.

Edited December 11, 20241 yr by TeaCider24

Just now, TeaCider24 said:

 

Blackburn and Sunderland 100% do not have a better squads than us.

I didn't say that they did. 

Disappointing last night, too many of our boys having an off night. Leeds pressed with force and made the most of our regular giveaways. They just wanted it more and put in the physical side, we didnt and I don't think we have that in our locker. We look great when we get the space and time, but Leeds were quicker and stronger than any other team we've played.

Dieng looks a bit shaky to me, unsure why he catches everything in warm up but then parries everything in the game. Back four struggled last night. Midfield was dominated. Stack was nullified. But it was against the best team in the league away. So context needed.

Now we are 10 points back of Leeds and probs Shef Utd. Optimistic side of me thinks Shef Utd might wobble a bit yet. So we need to really max these next 3 games. Which really are winnable, and then give Burnley a good go, we owe them a beating... Top 2? Getting harder to see but not done yet IF we put 10-12 points on the board in the next 4 (lots of games coming up between those above us).

1 minute ago, TeaCider24 said:

 

Blackburn and Sunderland 100% do not have a better squads than us.

But sadly both beat us Blackburn at our place still grates me

It's an imperfect measurement but it's worth looking at squad value on transfermarkt.  Never totally accurate but gives a gauge. 

They have us down as being worth 80.78mil Leeds are 187mil, Burnley 187, Sunderland 100, sheff utd 89. And I'd say that's about right for the players they have at their disposal. 

Is challenging for only the play offs disappointing absolutely? Realistically is it our level? Yeah, probably.

3 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

I didn't say that they did. 

Well that stat about the top 7 results indicating there are better squads is irrelevant if you don't think they do.

Of the 3 who undeniably do, we've got 4 out of 9 points.

Edited December 11, 20241 yr by TeaCider24

Just now, TeaCider24 said:

Well that stat about the top 7 is irrelevant if you don't think they do.

It's to illustrate that if were consistently getting poor results by the teams around us, our squad isn't strong enough to finish above them all. Anything can happen in one off games, but that were consistently struggling against those top performing teams indicates there are better squads in the league given that they are doing better in that metric. 

Another note on how we've performed in those 6 games against our peers - we've scored 4 goals in them -

Own goal

Dijksteel ( barlaser assist)

Edmundson (no assist)

ELL (azaz assist)

One goal and one assist from our supposed best attack in the league against the top 7 sides across 6 games. 

We are flat track bullies - it's great to watch at times but those players are really failing to impact the big games. 

12 hours ago, mackie2424 said:

Beat West Brom away when they were top, beat Sheff Utd at home, should have beat Norwich away if the players didn’t bottle it. I completely disagree with the narrative of Carrick falling short in big games, laughable actually. I’ll give you we were very poor against Sunderland away but tonight we were just fine and on another night would have won the game.

What game were you watching?

We were completely outclassed by Leeds for 75% of the game. They were literally in a different league for most of the match and Boro simply couldn't live with them. There is clearly a big gap in quality, both man for man and how effectively they play as a team. We got what we deserved.

1 minute ago, AnglianRed said:

What game were you watching?

We were completely outclassed by Leeds for 75% of the game. They were literally in a different league for most of the match and Boro simply couldn't live with them. There is clearly a big gap in quality, both man for man and how effectively they play as a team. We got what we deserved.

I don't agree with that assessment. We were well short of our best and we ultimately shot ourselves. We didn't deserve to win either but there certainly wasn't big gap in quality...just go read Daniel Farke's comments in his press conference he admits to the quality we have at our disposal.

11 hours ago, HolgateHero said:

Agreed, and makes all the chances we missed in the second half V Burnley harder to take. We really should have taken the three points there. The chance where Manu is onto a through ball, just needs a touch over or round the keeper and he shins it into the keepers arms.

Those are the kinds of chance you have to take it you want to make it into the top 2. 

Won't have two harder games back-to-back again for a while, but we all want to see a big reaction V Millwall. 

 

Yep - thats the gap in quality between top 2 teams and ones fighting for a play-off place. 

As far as our chances go, would also give an honourable mention to Doak shooting straight at the keeper when he could have chipped it over & scored. More leeway as he's a relatively young lad, but its symptomatic of the generally poor decision making throughout the team. Along with the number of attempted through balls that went straight to white shirts.

This is why I'm also highly critical of the coaching set-up and why I feel we need some older / more experienced and better quality coaches who are actually capable of improving players, physically, technically & mentally. Leadboots & Woody might be great blokes, but based on what we see, week in, week out, it doesn't look like they're having much impact. Not to mention the number of non-contact injuries the players pick up.

If you can't sign any better players in your price range, you need to improve the ones you have...

 

That said, beating Leeds on their own ground was always gonna be tough ask. Boro just aren't at their level. As long as we bounce back in some of the easier fixtures, we're still a good bet for the play-offs.

Edited December 11, 20241 yr by AnglianRed