13 minutes ago, Humpty said:

We didn't have any structure in place whilst Karanka was manager. Not to mention that building with Karanka would have been like building a house on sand. 

But we were in the PL and that's what you're saying is what we need. whereas I disagree (preferring not to have to build on sand) and just highlighted when the method you suggest didn't work for us. Unless this extended period in the champo is part of the master plan.

Edited January 5, 20251 yr by HolgateHero

We need promotion for financial reasons as it will probably take ten years in the Championship to get the financial benefit of just one season in the Premiership.

Like most promoted sides we will very likely stink the Premiership out but will come back down with a better squad than the one we go up with which is why like all relegated sides they become favourites for an instant return because they also have more money to spend for players and wages on top of a more competent squad. Despite that advantage  if we went back up it's highly likely that we would simply come straight back down but again with a stronger squad and more cash to splash. Eventually we would hopefully reach a tipping point where the team is just about good enough to stay up and then reinforce with a few improvements to claw up another two or three spaces the season after.

Th gap between the Premiership and the Championship is far far greater now than it was when we last went up under AK. It is now a huge, almost inconceivable chasm. We spent badly and recruited badly when we achieved Promotion, tactically we (or at least AK) weren't savvy enough to stay up. When we inevitably came back down the money was just pished up a wall for a number of reasons with a few strange deals that seemingly went on over the heads of our gullible senior executive set up at the time. Scott's appointment would (or even will) hopefully ensure that doesn't repeat and that we do indeed see an improvement year on year and not waste it on mercenaries or cut price crocks (if it looks to good to be true then it probably is) or for that matter relationships between a manager and certain dubious connections "allegedly".

2 hours ago, HolgateHero said:

But we were in the PL and that's what you're saying is what we need. whereas I disagree (preferring not to have to build on sand) and just highlighted when the method you suggest didn't work for us. Unless this extended period in the champo is part of the master plan.

The Prem is what is needed. Like Humpty said, the plan is to make signings in the Prem to improve the squad so if we go back down we can bounce straight back up with a strong team.

It didn't work last time because after we were relegated we had Monk in charge who didn't work with what we had and instead made wholesale changes and dodgy transfers.

We had Bamford, Traore, Fischer, Stuani and Gestede (admittedly Gestede was a donkey) yet Monk spent £30m on Braithwaite, Assombalonga and Fletcher.

Monk was then sacked before Xmas and Pulis was brought in, who had a completely opposing play style meaning most of the squad was useless to him.

We now have a system in place with a DOF and a recruitment team and we have a system where the manager is not solely in charge of transfers. This is meant to prevent too much chopping and changing of the squad between managers.

If we go up this time, I would assume we have more sense and failsafes put in place so we don't ditch everything off if we get relegated again

 

51 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

We need promotion for financial reasons as it will probably take ten years in the Championship to get the financial benefit of just one season in the Premiership.

Like most promoted sides we will very likely stink the Premiership out but will come back down with a better squad than the one we go up with which is why like all relegated sides they become favourites for an instant return because they also have more money to spend for players and wages on top of a more competent squad. Despite that advantage  if we went back up it's highly likely that we would simply come straight back down but again with a stronger squad and more cash to splash. Eventually we would hopefully reach a tipping point where the team is just about good enough to stay up and then reinforce with a few improvements to claw up another two or three spaces the season after.

Th gap between the Premiership and the Championship is far far greater now than it was when we last went up under AK. It is now a huge, almost inconceivable chasm. We spent badly and recruited badly when we achieved Promotion, tactically we (or at least AK) weren't savvy enough to stay up. When we inevitably came back down the money was just pished up a wall for a number of reasons with a few strange deals that seemingly went on over the heads of our gullible senior executive set up at the time. Scott's appointment would (or even will) hopefully ensure that doesn't repeat and that we do indeed see an improvement year on year and not waste it on mercenaries or cut price crocks (if it looks to good to be true then it probably is) or for that matter relationships between a manager and certain dubious connections "allegedly".

That being said, there are more teams that got relegated after one season in the PL that are now still outside of the pl than have managed to stay there. There are teams that fell off a cliff after relegation from the pl. In fact there are probably more teams this tactic has failed for than ones it worked for. For every Southampton theres a Barnsley, Bolton or even Luton this season.

Be interesting to see where all the clubs are now that spent one year in the PL and were then relegated. I have a feeling the outlook is not very rosy for as many of them as made it work.

A lot of people dislike how we are currently operating, so the idea to get loads of money then manage it surely makes no sense. To be able to correctly manage the money for me comes after the managing things correctly bit.  

Everyone has a different opinion I just don't see much evidence the idea practically working. 

But if that is the way we go, a few more stuff upper lips will be required among the fan base as we go through the joy/despair cycle with our fingers crossed we are one of the clubs that make it. 

8 minutes ago, OldManGravz said:

The Prem is what is needed. Like Humpty said, the plan is to make signings in the Prem to improve the squad so if we go back down we can bounce straight back up with a strong team.

It didn't work last time because after we were relegated we had Monk in charge who didn't work with what we had and instead made wholesale changes and dodgy transfers.

We had Bamford, Traore, Fischer, Stuani and Gestede (admittedly Gestede was a donkey) yet Monk spent £30m on Braithwaite, Assombalonga and Fletcher.

Monk was then sacked before Xmas and Pulis was brought in, who had a completely opposing play style meaning most of the squad was useless to him.

We now have a system in place with a DOF and a recruitment team and we have a system where the manager is not solely in charge of transfers. This is meant to prevent too much chopping and changing of the squad between managers.

If we go up this time, I would assume we have more sense and failsafes put in place so we don't ditch everything off if we get relegated again

 

It didn't work last time and currently not working for Luton either and has failed other clubs too. 

10 minutes ago, HolgateHero said:

It didn't work last time and currently not working for Luton either and has failed other clubs too. 

"Someone else failed so let's never attempt it ourselves" I'd rather give it a go than stay in the Championship forever trying to get promoted against parachute payments to be honest.

Lots of clubs fail mate, but not every club operates the same way, has similar scouting and recruitment setups, different budgets etc.

I don't really remember Luton making any standout signings when they went up - if I remember from what I read at the time, they ate most of the Prem money to build their new stadium, so most of their transfers were youth signings or from mid level championship clubs.

And while it might not have worked at Luton, it worked at Burnley - went up in 2014, got relegated straight away, reinforced then went back up the next season and were in the Prem for 6 years after that, even got into Europe.

There's also the slimmest possibility that we stay up first year - let's face it, nobody expected Forest, Bournemouth or Brighton to stay in the Prem the first year they were promoted

 

36 minutes ago, OldManGravz said:

"Someone else failed so let's never attempt it ourselves" I'd rather give it a go than stay in the Championship forever trying to get promoted against parachute payments to be honest.

Lots of clubs fail mate, but not every club operates the same way, has similar scouting and recruitment setups, different budgets etc.

I don't really remember Luton making any standout signings when they went up - if I remember from what I read at the time, they ate most of the Prem money to build their new stadium, so most of their transfers were youth signings or from mid level championship clubs.

And while it might not have worked at Luton, it worked at Burnley - went up in 2014, got relegated straight away, reinforced then went back up the next season and were in the Prem for 6 years after that, even got into Europe.

There's also the slimmest possibility that we stay up first year - let's face it, nobody expected Forest, Bournemouth or Brighton to stay in the Prem the first year they were promoted

 

I didn't say that, I said we failed trying and that other clubs have failed trying it too. 

Despite myriad examples of it not working for other clubs (and us) it's clear there's a belief that it's the only way of becoming sustainable in the PL. 

But it's not an absolute that it's the only path to sustaining a stint in the pl, for example badly financially managed pl clubs may start to fall away making space for well run financially sustainable clubs. You could cycle through buying low and selling high enough times to make the money required to support appropriate strength of squad and ethos.

There are lots of ways something can happen, not just the most obvious way - that is at very best hit and miss. 

I'm open to possibilities but I also appreciate a rigid focus on one solution can be beneficial, i just dont think it's what we need right now.

 

Edited January 6, 20251 yr by HolgateHero

Some very well and considered posts thanks guys.

Mind you a reminder was forced upon us when Sunderland managed to beat Portsmouth where we failed to beat Cardiff who as we know are in a similar state and fighting for their lives down the bottom.

The here and now is the most important aspect getting that third spot for promotion still seems a long way away

13 minutes ago, Downsouth said:

Some very well and considered posts thanks guys.

Mind you a reminder was forced upon us when Sunderland managed to beat Portsmouth where we failed to beat Cardiff who as we know are in a similar state and fighting for their lives down the bottom.

The here and now is the most important aspect getting that third spot for promotion still seems a long way away

We are settling for winning the playoffs this season 

10 hours ago, HolgateHero said:

But we were in the PL and that's what you're saying is what we need. whereas I disagree (preferring not to have to build on sand) and just highlighted when the method you suggest didn't work for us. Unless this extended period in the champo is part of the master plan.

It is what we need. We didn't make the most of it. You still have to execute a sound plan and we had no plan.  I'd go as far to say that that experience and the following years of failure led Gibson to put a new organisational structure in place which will allow us to capitalise on promotion next time round. There are plenty of examples of how this has worked...Forest are a good one because they've built completely from scratch. Shows you what can be achieved if you invest correctly.

1 hour ago, Humpty said:

It is what we need. We didn't make the most of it. You still have to execute a sound plan and we had no plan.  I'd go as far to say that that experience and the following years of failure led Gibson to put a new organisational structure in place which will allow us to capitalise on promotion next time round. There are plenty of examples of how this has worked...Forest are a good one because they've built completely from scratch. Shows you what can be achieved if you invest correctly.

Wouldn't want to be using forests model myself. In that they didn't have a model, they bought around 40 players in their first 18 months back (not exaggerating) and stayed up by the skin of their teeth despite that. And its only really since they got a proper manager that it's come together. 

Id rather we go up, invest heavily in 5 - 6 signings. If its not enough, go down, buy players with high ceilings with parachute money, go up and do the same again till it sticks.

That's the beauty of an increased revenue stream. It gives you options. We don't have those options if we don't get promoted. Forests model worked, whether you like it or not. It's slap dash for sure but it worked.

1 minute ago, Humpty said:

That's the beauty of an increased revenue stream. It gives you options. We don't have those options if we don't get promoted. Forests model worked, whether you like it or not. It's slap dash for sure but it worked.

It did but it's an exception I would say. Other teams have tried similar - including ourselves (fulham a few years ago before their second go at it another good example - in fact a good example in general as they got relegated, switched tack and the next time they got promoted they stayed up) - in trying to completely overhaul a championship promoted side in one summer and it falls flat on its face normally. Forest got lucky imo. Obviously there's a lot of luck involved either way but I'd much rather the semblance of a plan rather than throwing *** at the wall till it sticks. 

1 hour ago, Humpty said:

It is what we need. We didn't make the most of it. You still have to execute a sound plan and we had no plan.  I'd go as far to say that that experience and the following years of failure led Gibson to put a new organisational structure in place which will allow us to capitalise on promotion next time round. There are plenty of examples of how this has worked...Forest are a good one because they've built completely from scratch. Shows you what can be achieved if you invest correctly.

I'd rather we didn't follow Forest's approach and sign a ridiculous number of players.

Would hope our recruitment is more carefully targeted. Though if we somehow got promoted in our current state, that is likely what we'd have to do out of necessity.

But agree in principle that it should be possible to build a decent side, provided we have a plan in place.

No one is suggesting we use Forest's approach. It was an example of what Premier League money can do.