51 minutes ago, Neverbefore said:

Wouldn't want to be using forests model myself. In that they didn't have a model, they bought around 40 players in their first 18 months back (not exaggerating) and stayed up by the skin of their teeth despite that. And its only really since they got a proper manager that it's come together. 

Id rather we go up, invest heavily in 5 - 6 signings. If its not enough, go down, buy players with high ceilings with parachute money, go up and do the same again till it sticks.

yeah forest and wolves gambled on promotion and pushed limits if not breached ffp, forest looks like its paying off right now, but so did wolves at the time too and you can see how that has went with the mis-management behind the scenes starting to catch up with them.

without knowing a great deal about forests squad, one thing that usually catches teams up who find themselves in the situation of a gamble paying off is what to do next, usually teams need to be clever in who they buy and who they sell, focussing on the now and also the next few years. teams that think about the now and don't have the long term plans only tend to fly up the league and come down just as fast when the plan for the now falls apart and there's nothing left in the tank for the future. 

often when the team stops over performing they don't cut the manager who got them over performing any slack and someone else comes in who wants to rip up what they done, and if that don't work out its a very slippery slope

which is probs the difference from being a Brighton or a wolves in that league

Edited January 6, 20251 yr by Rob

1 hour ago, Humpty said:

It is what we need. We didn't make the most of it. You still have to execute a sound plan and we had no plan.  I'd go as far to say that that experience and the following years of failure led Gibson to put a new organisational structure in place which will allow us to capitalise on promotion next time round. There are plenty of examples of how this has worked...Forest are a good one because they've built completely from scratch. Shows you what can be achieved if you invest correctly.

When we got promoted the consensus was that we had recruited well, recruited early and were favourites to stay up. We spent over £20m which, at the time, was about the going rate for a promoted club plus with Negredo and Valdes on loan we looked to have imported significant Premier league experience. Burnley spent more and Hull spent a bit less. Burnley stayed up, Hull came back down with us. Our standard 1st 11 looked a match for clubs in the bottom third of the Premier league. 

The problem was that the club was badly fractured behind the scenes, AK was losing the plot big time and players we thought would be good enough for the Premier league either got injured, were past the best or downed tools. Out of our spine from the Championship: Clayton, Leadbitter, Gibson, Ayala, Friend & Ramirez only Gibson really looked the part. 

For me, the issue went back to Charlton and the inability to recover from that. It seemed ok for a while but it's clear in hindsight that Gibson no longer trusted AK. Before the season started I was expecting us to spend about twice what we did in the summer, going by previous experience but it looks like Gibson had AK on probation. Then January was the real disaster. We spent as much in January as in the summer but terribly. Each decision from that point simply made things worse, ending in the appointment of Monk and a complete disaster. It has taken us 7 years to get the club onto any sort of professional footing and even now I don't trust Gibson: he could easily bin the last 3 years and make a 180 degree turn. 

1 minute ago, Bruce said:

When we got promoted the consensus was that we had recruited well, recruited early and were favourites to stay up. We spent over £20m which, at the time, was about the going rate for a promoted club plus with Negredo and Valdes on loan we looked to have imported significant Premier league experience. Burnley spent more and Hull spent a bit less. Burnley stayed up, Hull came back down with us. Our standard 1st 11 looked a match for clubs in the bottom third of the Premier league. 

The problem was that the club was badly fractured behind the scenes, AK was losing the plot big time and players we thought would be good enough for the Premier league either got injured, were past the best or downed tools. Out of our spine from the Championship: Clayton, Leadbitter, Gibson, Ayala, Friend & Ramirez only Gibson really looked the part. 

For me, the issue went back to Charlton and the inability to recover from that. It seemed ok for a while but it's clear in hindsight that Gibson no longer trusted AK. Before the season started I was expecting us to spend about twice what we did in the summer, going by previous experience but it looks like Gibson had AK on probation. Then January was the real disaster. We spent as much in January as in the summer but terribly. Each decision from that point simply made things worse, ending in the appointment of Monk and a complete disaster. It has taken us 7 years to get the club onto any sort of professional footing and even now I don't trust Gibson: he could easily bin the last 3 years and make a 180 degree turn. 

lets not forget burnley had not long come down and maintained a lot of their premier league squad as well

Bottom line and the point of the discussion...promotion and the money it provides, gives you more opportunities than the alternative of trying to build steadily in the Championship.

Forest were incredibly lucky to be punished for their cheating in the season with arguably the worst 3 promoted teams in Premier League history.

There have been worse individual teams promoted, but I can't think of another where all 3 were absolutely miles off it.

Forest would have rightly went down in most other seasons.

Signing 32 players in one season, so many that they couldn't even keep about a dozen of them registered, was ludicrous, their owner is an absolute clown as well.

Edited January 6, 20251 yr by TeaCider24

1 hour ago, TeaCider24 said:

Forest were incredibly lucky to be punished for their cheating in the season with arguably the worst 3 promoted teams in Premier League history.

There have been worse individual teams promoted, but I can't think of another where all 3 were absolutely miles off it.

Forest would have rightly went down in most other seasons.

Signing 32 players in one season, so many that they couldn't even keep about a dozen of them registered, was ludicrous, their owner is an absolute clown as well.

yeah if he don't sell on I see more of a Wolves situation than a Villa one. when you hear of Villa trying things on with FFP everything's organised and pretty smart, where with forrest you get gamble and throw as much *** at the wall to make something stick, they got lucky and based on other teams who also got lucky without the owner showing good management its likley over performing season, they have to deal with retaining these over performing players in the summer and/or coming up with profitable sales and buying more players that will turn a profit when they want to move on also, rather than just hoping saudi aribia bails you out

22 hours ago, MarkT73 said:

As H says above. We would likely be up and down and up again. But if you want to build a Premier League squad, that's the only way now.

Admittedly the first season up won't be a great watch....

First season add 5 or 6 on longish contracts, hold on to as many as you can, go back up and add 5 or 6 more.

If you look at Ipswich. IF they fail to finish outside the bottom 3 they'll lose a couple of their players that have shone, eg Delap. But they'll be stronger than the Championship team of last season.

I agree but Steve no longer has the appetite, cause or reason. We lost our chance when we didn’t go back up before the parachute payments ran out. My take on the whole. Steve did not invest to prevent us going down thinking we would bounce back up. Then didn’t take it serious enough and walla here we are. 

22 minutes ago, sanddancer said:

I agree but Steve no longer has the appetite, cause or reason. We lost our chance when we didn’t go back up before the parachute payments ran out. My take on the whole. Steve did not invest to prevent us going down thinking we would bounce back up. Then didn’t take it serious enough and walla here we are. 

Im pretty sure no team has spent as much as us in a single transfer window in this division than we did that summer we came down. And that was without any significant sales, de Roon money being returned aside.

He took it very seriously, just made a lot of bad decisions. He has course corrected on this since with the appointment of Scott and rebuilding our scouting and recruitment system. Your first statement is ridiculous. Why would he bother doing any of that if he didn't care?

What annoys me about this result and the Sheffield Wednesday draw was that we conceded a goal in each of those games whilst trying to avoid giving a corner away. We’d possibly be 4 points better off had we conceded those 2 corners. 

1 hour ago, BillyWoofs_shinpad said:

What annoys me about this result and the Sheffield Wednesday draw was that we conceded a goal in each of those games whilst trying to avoid giving a corner away. We’d possibly be 4 points better off had we conceded those 2 corners. 

Maybe. But then again have you seen us defending corners? 😉

4 minutes ago, ladyspite said:

Maybe. But then again have you seen us defending corners? 😉

Yes... Glover seems to have developed the idea it is possible to come off the line and catch the ball...that will never catch on 🙂 

15 hours ago, Humpty said:

Bottom line and the point of the discussion...promotion and the money it provides, gives you more opportunities than the alternative of trying to build steadily in the Championship.

I'm discussing something else, that there are undeniably and factually proven other ways to gain promotion. I began discussing it as it seemed there was a belief it's the ONLY way. And it isn't.  

Granted the extra money gives extra opportunities, but it also gives you issues to deal with when relegated. 

Stone cold facts are that there are more teams with parachute payments outside of the PL than in there. Yes it's a pathway, but is it norwich who've had 3 parachute payments and currently 11th in the champo? It's hit and miss - with more misses statistically.

Imo sound management of the club will serve us better in the long run than a bit of extra cash (evidenced by all the teams outside of the pl that received parachute payments) we disagree and that's ok. 

Edited January 7, 20251 yr by HolgateHero

6 hours ago, BillyWoofs_shinpad said:

What annoys me about this result and the Sheffield Wednesday draw was that we conceded a goal in each of those games whilst trying to avoid giving a corner away. We’d possibly be 4 points better off had we conceded those 2 corners. 

Agreed, hackney really needed to put his boot through one of them instead of trying to dink it over the attacker. If we didn't concede any of the incredibly soft goals, and the incredibly jammy goals we'd be flying. 

7 hours ago, HolgateHero said:

I'm discussing something else, that there are undeniably and factually proven other ways to gain promotion. I began discussing it as it seemed there was a belief it's the ONLY way. And it isn't.  

Granted the extra money gives extra opportunities, but it also gives you issues to deal with when relegated. 

Stone cold facts are that there are more teams with parachute payments outside of the PL than in there. Yes it's a pathway, but is it norwich who've had 3 parachute payments and currently 11th in the champo? It's hit and miss - with more misses statistically.

Imo sound management of the club will serve us better in the long run than a bit of extra cash (evidenced by all the teams outside of the pl that received parachute payments) we disagree and that's ok. 

The reason there are more teams outside the Premier League with parachute payments than there are clubs in it is because there are finite spots in the Premier League. There are way more teams outside the Premier League without parachute payments than there are in it, too.

The fact still remains that the easiest way to get out of this league is to buy the best players, and that's easier with Premier League money than without. The top three are two of the teams relegated last season, and the only one relegated the season before that didn't go straight back up. You get one underdog each season, usually - Sunderland this time, Ipswich last season, Luton the season before - but it usually holds true that the richer clubs do better.

17 minutes ago, JCWamma said:

The reason there are more teams outside the Premier League with parachute payments than there are clubs in it is because there are finite spots in the Premier League. There are way more teams outside the Premier League without parachute payments than there are in it, too.

The fact still remains that the easiest way to get out of this league is to buy the best players, and that's easier with Premier League money than without. The top three are two of the teams relegated last season, and the only one relegated the season before that didn't go straight back up. You get one underdog each season, usually - Sunderland this time, Ipswich last season, Luton the season before - but it usually holds true that the richer clubs do better.

plus you can sometimes keep players that only joined you because you were in the premier league for a season or so if they believe in the manager and getting paid enough etc

easy to argue that some teams don't bounce back, of course some don't, because sometimes theres good reasons teams come down more than just not having the players, sometimes they have terrible management from the owners and/or coaching staff and its still not successfully addressed when they are in the EFL, or the sometimes things might be alright behind the scenes. but the players need 6months+ to get used to the league. 

Most years there are 2 parachute payments going up, that stat alone tells you that your chances of going up are massively increased. Usually one bounces back 1st try and often another is in their 2nd year 

Edited January 7, 20251 yr by Rob