Carrick

[JonnyMFC 1,808 1.9k]

26 minutes ago, Plastic Goat said:

If we are still in the Championship next season and Carrick stays then that's where we will stay. He just doesn't learn.

And neither do you, yet you continuously bang the same drum until the day comes when you can say "I told you so".
One day you will be right, its inevitable, despite what happens between now and then, but you can then walk around proud as punch in your own little head full of magic.

[BillyWoofs_shinpad 2,119 10.2k]

2 hours ago, Plastic Goat said:

If we are still in the Championship next season and Carrick stays then that's where we will stay. He just doesn't learn.

Carrick will learn, he’s gaining more experience with every season that he’s with the club. He’s not stupid and he’s not one for a knee jerk reaction which is a strength. 

[Plastic Goat 460 745]

9 minutes ago, BillyWoofs_shinpad said:

Carrick will learn, he’s gaining more experience with every season that he’s with the club. He’s not stupid and he’s not one for a knee jerk reaction which is a strength. 

He hasn't demonstrated a steep learning curve so far

 

[Humpty 4,560 10.1k]

10 minutes ago, Plastic Goat said:

He hasn't demonstrated a steep learning curve so far

There are a lot of lessons that haven't be learnt from last season.

[Plastic Goat 460 745]

2 hours ago, JonnyMFC said:

And neither do you, yet you continuously bang the same drum until the day comes when you can say "I told you so".
One day you will be right, its inevitable, despite what happens between now and then, but you can then walk around proud as punch in your own little head full of magic.

It's not me that needs to learn, I'm not the manager. Boro tend to ship goals under Carrick. It's a big failing. He hasn't addressed this massive issue. Therefore he has no answer.Therefoe he's not learning.

[wilsoncgp 9,692 19.7k]

16 hours ago, DocMartin said:

How do you blame Carrick for players mistakes causing goals conceded? How do you decide if poor coaching is the problem?

is selling Lath and Doak being recalled down to Carrick, will their replacements be guaranteed to be as effective for less outlay than recouped? Will their pace be replicated?

You buy and sell in the summer window when you can bed in players, mid season can cause disruption it isn’t always a positive.

 

Carrick is the best thing to happen for a while, who do you replace him with and why?

 

I don't think the points on Lath or Doak are particularly meaningful because we're showcasing the problems that people are concerned about with them still here.

I do think if players continuously make mistakes as a unit then it does come back to coaching or recruitment too. It's potentially a tactical thing too. I always think of Ben Gibson, having just had one of his most impressive seasons with us in the Premier League, coming back to the Championship looking like hot garbage under Monk. He would constantly get dragged out of position and made to look a bit silly. But the consistency of it showed the problem was the tactics, where Monk wanted Clayton to operate as the middle centre back in possession but we couldn't condense into a good defensive shape on the counter.

That being said, I do mostly come back to the same position as others. Firstly, our attacking football under Carrick has been incredibly entertaining at times and I would rather watch us fail to get promoted playing like we do now than go back to watching dull and lifeless football. It's clear that players like playing for him too.

And secondly, the grass isn't always greener when you move on. If Carrick was let go of tomorrow, you have to be realistic and think who would Gibson really allow Scott to go for. I'm 99% sure it would have to be a free agent or an internal promotion. If Carrick was allowed to move to a Premier League club then we'd have some compensation so I think that'd be different, I think Scott would ask to use that money to find the best coach but if we're moving him on ourselves, that's not the case. So the first name that comes to mind is Woodgate. Then looking at the possibly realistic free agents, Rooney, O'Neil, Martin, Cooper, Schumacher, Moyes, Mogga, Wagner, Ismaël, Pearson, Karanka, Jokanovic, Gracia, Ince, McCarthy, Pardew. That's a big list of people who don't fit the bill of what we'd look for in a manager, don't give you confidence they'd improve us or are possibly even out of our reach. When you consider the alternatives, Carrick seems like about as good as we can hope for anyway.

[Redcar Rioja 8,076 7.9k]

7 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

I don't think the points on Lath or Doak are particularly meaningful because we're showcasing the problems that people are concerned about with them still here.

I do think if players continuously make mistakes as a unit then it does come back to coaching or recruitment too. It's potentially a tactical thing too. I always think of Ben Gibson, having just had one of his most impressive seasons with us in the Premier League, coming back to the Championship looking like hot garbage under Monk. He would constantly get dragged out of position and made to look a bit silly. But the consistency of it showed the problem was the tactics, where Monk wanted Clayton to operate as the middle centre back in possession but we couldn't condense into a good defensive shape on the counter.

That being said, I do mostly come back to the same position as others. Firstly, our attacking football under Carrick has been incredibly entertaining at times and I would rather watch us fail to get promoted playing like we do now than go back to watching dull and lifeless football. It's clear that players like playing for him too.

And secondly, the grass isn't always greener when you move on. If Carrick was let go of tomorrow, you have to be realistic and think who would Gibson really allow Scott to go for. I'm 99% sure it would have to be a free agent or an internal promotion. If Carrick was allowed to move to a Premier League club then we'd have some compensation so I think that'd be different, I think Scott would ask to use that money to find the best coach but if we're moving him on ourselves, that's not the case. So the first name that comes to mind is Woodgate. Then looking at the possibly realistic free agents, Rooney, O'Neil, Martin, Cooper, Schumacher, Moyes, Mogga, Wagner, Ismaël, Pearson, Karanka, Jokanovic, Gracia, Ince, McCarthy, Pardew. That's a big list of people who don't fit the bill of what we'd look for in a manager, don't give you confidence they'd improve us or are possibly even out of our reach. When you consider the alternatives, Carrick seems like about as good as we can hope for anyway.

That sounds like all the reasons someone gives for remaining in a loveless marriage rather than daring to find true love and happiness. (With the exception of the Woodgate bit, in which case I'd suggest taking up darning socks as a hobby). 😀

[wilsoncgp 9,692 19.7k]

1 hour ago, Redcar Rioja said:

That sounds like all the reasons someone gives for remaining in a loveless marriage rather than daring to find true love and happiness. (With the exception of the Woodgate bit, in which case I'd suggest taking up darning socks as a hobby). 😀

When your alternatives are in the Bongo, you start to consider that it might be better the devil you know. 😂

[Borodane 7,456 27.1k]

21 hours ago, Plastic Goat said:

He hasn't demonstrated a steep learning curve so far

 

He's been a manager for just over 2 years. How many new managers do instantly demonstrate a steeper learning curve? All the good ones have started somewhere. It's also why I don't for a second believe that he is a target for West Ham. He's here to learn and still has plenty learn. No doubt about that.

Do we have the patience for that or do we go back to the more experienced option where the risk is that they are not willing to change their ways like the previous couple of managers we've had.

[Bruce 2,524 2.1k]

10 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

And secondly, the grass isn't always greener when you move on. If Carrick was let go of tomorrow, you have to be realistic and think who would Gibson really allow Scott to go for. I'm 99% sure it would have to be a free agent or an internal promotion.

Then again, who had heard of Regis Le Bris this time last year? True that the grass isn't always greener but one part of having a head of football and a coach is that replacing the coach becomes more straight-forward. I have to assume that if Scott is doing his job properly, he already has a short-list of potential candidates who can work with the group of players we have. 

Personally, I don't think Carrick is leaving this season and I think it would be a mistake to ditch him. Even if we don't get promoted (which right now is by far the most likely outcome) we don't want to slip back into bad habits of changing the manager mid-season. 

If we don't get promoted then I think it's likely but not inevitable that Carrick goes. It will depend on how badly we failed to get promoted. The big problem will be that if we don't get promoted Doak, ELL, Rav and Hackney will be long gone by the time a new bloke comes in. That's going to need a major overhaul and rebuild which probably would be best done with a new coaching team.

[Humpty 4,560 10.1k]

15 minutes ago, Borodane said:

He's been a manager for just over 2 years. How many new managers do instantly demonstrate a steeper learning curve? All the good ones have started somewhere. It's also why I don't for a second believe that he is a target for West Ham. He's here to learn and still has plenty learn. No doubt about that.

Do we have the patience for that or do we go back to the more experienced option where the risk is that they are not willing to change their ways like the previous couple of managers we've had.

Kieren McKenna and Carrick started on a similar career path...appointed 10 months apart. So there's one comparison. Notwithstanding that, when you have fundamental errors such as defensive frailty that isn't address from one season to the next, you have to ask the question why.

[wilsoncgp 9,692 19.7k]

3 hours ago, Bruce said:

Then again, who had heard of Regis Le Bris this time last year? True that the grass isn't always greener but one part of having a head of football and a coach is that replacing the coach becomes more straight-forward. I have to assume that if Scott is doing his job properly, he already has a short-list of potential candidates who can work with the group of players we have. 

Personally, I don't think Carrick is leaving this season and I think it would be a mistake to ditch him. Even if we don't get promoted (which right now is by far the most likely outcome) we don't want to slip back into bad habits of changing the manager mid-season. 

If we don't get promoted then I think it's likely but not inevitable that Carrick goes. It will depend on how badly we failed to get promoted. The big problem will be that if we don't get promoted Doak, ELL, Rav and Hackney will be long gone by the time a new bloke comes in. That's going to need a major overhaul and rebuild which probably would be best done with a new coaching team.

Obviously the list I gave is just what I can find and you're right to suggest Scott will know better who he wants, what he wants, etc. I have no problem with that and I'm pretty happy with Scott at the helm too.

But I think we live in such a reactionary age, especially in football management, where what is there isn't working as best we think it should therefore the solution is someone that isn't here. And I think it's worth taking a step back from that view every now and again and taking stock of what you have vs. what's available before calling for the axe. You know full well that Scott will be doing the same.

We aren't walking into a vast pool of quality coaches by getting rid of the current one. I personally think the reality is that if we had no manager and Carrick had done what he's done here elsewhere and sat in the pool of potentials, we'd be looking at him as someone who could come in to us and be the one to take us further. So that begs the question why get rid of him if he's already somewhere among the best we can get? There's value in stability too.

He is still a young coach, all things considered. If he stays having not gotten us promoted, he will be challenged to do better. Scott wants us promoted, he doesn't want us at this level, so if he keeps Carrick in place that doesn't mean he's just accepted the state of affairs, it might just mean he starts to turn the pressure up a bit and think that's a better way of handling our failure than tearing up the coaching team to start again.

[LinoJo3 4,958 12.4k]

The thing about Carrick is sometimes I get the impression he’s using us as an experiment, trying to build a system to wow everyone rather than make a way to get us promoted.

The more you analyse it the more you see how great the system is…. When it works. It’s champions league level stuff, we’ve got the midfield box going on, full backs inverting, center backs splitting, CM going to cb. Make no mistake the amount of work that has probably gone into it will be insane. There’s a reason everytime we get beat the opposition manager seems to come out and yap on about how they made special changes to their set up against us.

The flip side of this is can the players do it properly? Are they focused to much on playing the system rather than a football match? If we can see the failings he can see the failings.

Maybe he is adapting it a bit, our form hasn’t been that bad I think we’ve lost only twice in 2 or 3 months and can Carrick really be held accountable for that ridiculous attempt at a clearance from Fry, that Jones back pass vs Derby, the Dieng + Clarke disaster? Bizarre individual errors have probably cost us double figure points.

[BillyWoofs_shinpad 2,119 10.2k]

1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

Obviously the list I gave is just what I can find and you're right to suggest Scott will know better who he wants, what he wants, etc. I have no problem with that and I'm pretty happy with Scott at the helm too.

But I think we live in such a reactionary age, especially in football management, where what is there isn't working as best we think it should therefore the solution is someone that isn't here. And I think it's worth taking a step back from that view every now and again and taking stock of what you have vs. what's available before calling for the axe. You know full well that Scott will be doing the same.

We aren't walking into a vast pool of quality coaches by getting rid of the current one. I personally think the reality is that if we had no manager and Carrick had done what he's done here elsewhere and sat in the pool of potentials, we'd be looking at him as someone who could come in to us and be the one to take us further. So that begs the question why get rid of him if he's already somewhere among the best we can get? There's value in stability too.

He is still a young coach, all things considered. If he stays having not gotten us promoted, he will be challenged to do better. Scott wants us promoted, he doesn't want us at this level, so if he keeps Carrick in place that doesn't mean he's just accepted the state of affairs, it might just mean he starts to turn the pressure up a bit and think that's a better way of handling our failure than tearing up the coaching team to start again.

I agree with everything you say there…apart from the use of the word “gotten” an unnecessary Americanism that rather jars. 

[Redcar Rioja 8,076 7.9k]

For a Manager learning and improving my beef regarding Carrick is that I don't see an improvement this season, I'm just seeing the same old, same old.

As a "for instance", watching the Arsenal/Newcastle game last night when 2-0 up Howe made Subs and changed formation when they were winning 2-0 in the second half to counter Arsenal who themselves had changed tack to take the game to Newcastle.

That's what I'm not seeing with Carrick and I'm not sure if it's a form of puritanical belief in his Plan A or if he is a little bit lacking in the light bulb department. Either way it's a concern for me and the cause for a huge doubt over him in my mind. If he can adapt, change, become more fluid and tactical with his in-game management then he can progress but I'm not seeing it and it will be the hill he dies on if it continues. When his Plan A works it's a joy to behold but when it's being countered it's like watching Lemmings throwing themselves off a Cliff.