Maybe we just aren't that good

[Humpty 4,560 10.1k]

We absolutely did have a squad capable of "pushing" for the top two. There's always an element of luck in whether than manifests itself in results. We've had some injuries which haven't helped but we aren't the only ones. Carrick has struggled to adapt. It's his biggest weakness and why we haven't maximised and fulfilled our potential.

ELL is gone and that's because we aren't challenging for the top 2. He'd still be here if we were. I firmly believe that. We are where we are now. Within the last window we've had to prepare a squad to win the play offs. It goes without saying that finishing in the top 6 is a minimum. 

[Marz 185 1.7k]

Over the course of this season, I don't think we can look back and say our squads were up to the standards of Leeds, Burnley and Sheffield UTD? Their quality and depth is why they are where they are. 

Top 6 is still the minimum yes, but that's still attainable. Being this far behind Sunderland is the biggest disappointment, and again I think that comes down to them recruiting better than us. A mixture of Carrick's tactics and us not addressing our weak areas has left us where we are.

[Bruce 2,524 2.1k]

If Leeds, Sheff Utd and Burnley are in a different league when it comes to squads, I think we're among the best of the rest. 

Beginning of the season, I thought that if everything went well and the relegated teams did poorly, we could push for top 2. I thought, basically, we would be somewhere around where Sunderland is now. 

The squad had failings at left and right back plus lacked cover in midfield and was relying on Ayling and Howson to manage a whole season. 

You can't ignore injuries. None of our long-term injuries from last season came back and new long-term injuries plus a revolving door of players missing 6 games then taking 6 games to get back to match sharpness has hammered us. This would test the best of managers but even so, you can't say that Carrick has managed it well. 

On paper, if our squad was fully fit you would bet on it against any non-parachute payment squad in the league. Even with all the injuries we've mostly been able to put out a 1st 11 that is more than a match for any non-parachute payment team. 

You look at the teams WBA and Blackburn put out last night and think I would definitely prefer ours.

WBA

Wildsmith

Furlong - Holgate - Heggem - Styles

Mowatt - Molumby

Fellows - Price - Johnston

Armstrong

Blackburn

Pears

Brittain - Batth - Hyam - Ribeiro

Travis - Buckley

Dolan - Weimann - Hedges

Gueye

There aren't many in those two teams who are guaranteed starters for us.

[Plastic Goat 460 745]

Actually we aren't that good. We have been spun a load of tosh about how good this squad is. The league is poor and  we are a bit better than average,so ninth place is about right. If we had one of the best squads in the league we would have been in the top four all season. Reality check needed by some I'm afraid 

 

[Riverside94 1,303 1.8k]

I think we have shown that we can be good but teams have the tactics to nullify what makes us good and we have no answer apart from going all out attack and getting caught wide open on the break game after game after game 

[Changing Times 14,687 21.7k]

6 hours ago, Humpty said:

Lets not keep re-writing the script. The squad we had at the end of the summer transfer window was good enough to push for the top 2. 

What we are witnessing is managerial ineptitude.

Maybe.  However, Edmundson was the only addition in central defence.  VDB, Fry and Clarke are a decent trio at this level that's true but Fry has missed a lot of time through injury and Clarke is no longer here.  We added Ayling on the back of a real purple patch last season, and he hasn't gotten close to replicating that.  Borges came in at left back and to me is neither here nor there as a player.  He doesn't seem to be a particularly good defender or attacker, and he isn't even that athletic so he can just keep bombing up and down.  It's difficult to say that the back four are better than this time last season.

In midfield we only added Morris to what was a relatively weak group.  Personally I think Morris is overrated by it seems a lot of Boro fans.  He makes a lot of mistakes, and whilst he works hard, I just don't think it's enough.  He seems to have a tendency to try and nip in/dive in to win balls that he can't get to, and then he ends up taking himself out of the game.  I might be biased here because I wanted to see us get a better defensive player in there.  Morris is more of a get the ball, give the ball, get the ball, give the ball type.  He'll have plenty of touches per game but not really have any influence on it.  For him to be the only addition there wasn't enough, and I don't see that much difference between him and O'Brien in terms of ability. 

In the attacking positions we added Hamilton who has so far done nothing, Doak and Conway who have both been good, and Burgzorg who has mostly not done much but had a more effective few games recently.  I think we can say that those are an improvement on Silvera and Greenwood though.  However if we look at what was our best attacking four last season in terms of ability - probably McGree (a fit version), Azaz, Jones, Lath - and then we do the same for this season - McGree, Azaz, Doak, Lath - then there is only one actual difference.  We've done the adding squad members but not improved the actual first XI we can get out on the park.

Choose a best XI from last season - Dieng, (Choose two from VDB, Fry, Clarke, McNair), Dijksteel, (Choose one of Engel, Bangura) O'Brien, Hackney, McGree, Azaz, Jones, Lath.

Now do the same from this season and it's barely any different.  Doak is in it with Morris but the rest is basically the same.  So the best team we can put out there is hardly any better than last season, and that quality is what dictates how successful a team is.  A good squad is useful but it doesn't make up for a lack of quality.

 

Edited February 13 by Changing Times

[LinoJo3 4,958 12.4k]

3 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Maybe.  However, Edmundson was the only addition in central defence.  VDB, Fry and Clarke are a decent trio at this level that's true but Fry has missed a lot of time through injury and Clarke is no longer here.  We added Ayling on the back of a real purple patch last season, and he hasn't gotten close to replicating that.  Borges came in at left back and to me is neither here nor there as a player.  He doesn't seem to be a particularly good defender or attacker, and he isn't even that athletic so he just keep bombing up and down.  It's difficult to say that the back four are better than this time last season.

In midfield we only added Morris to what was a relatively weak group.  Personally I think Morris is overrated by it seems a lot of Boro fans.  He makes a lot of mistakes, and whilst he works hard, I just don't think it's enough.  He seems to have a tendency to try and nip in/dive in to win balls that he can't get to, and then he ends up taking himself out of the game.  I might be biased here because I wanted to see us get a better defensive player in there.  Morris is more of a get the ball, give the ball, get the ball, give the ball type.  He'll have plenty of touches per game but not really have any influence on it.  For him to be the only addition there wasn't enough, and I don't see that much difference between him and O'Brien in terms of ability. 

In the attacking positions we added Hamilton who has so far done nothing, Doak and Conway who have both been good, and Burgzorg who has mostly not done much but had a more effective few games recently.  I think we can say that those are an improvement on Silvera and Greenwood though.  However if we look at what was our best attacking four last season in terms of ability - probably McGree (a fit version), Azaz, Jones, Lath - and then we do the same for this season - McGree, Azaz, Doak, Lath - then there is only one actual difference.  We've done the adding squad members but not improved the actual first XI we can get out on the park.

Choose a best XI from last season - Dieng, (Choose two from VDB, Fry, Clarke, McNair), Dijksteel, (Choose one of Engel, Bangura) O'Brien, Hackney, McGree, Azaz, Jones, Lath.

Now do the same from this season and it's barely any different.  Doak is in it with Morris but the rest is basically the same.  So the best team we can put out there is hardly any better than last season, and that quality is what dictates how successful a team is.  A good squad is useful but it doesn't make up for a lack of quality.

 

All of that nit picking is missing the point tbh, yes we may come up short on quality to push for top 2 or whatever. But the players are MORE than good enough to hold on to a 3-0 lead vs sheff wed, to not shambolically give the ball away continuously. 
 

I’m sure many people would agree with me that there would be no hard feelings and far less negativity if we just came up short after putting up a good effort all season. It’s the gifts and *** ups and foot shooting that people are *** off about and again our players should be more than good enough to not make these mistakes.

Whatever ‘we’ll drilled’ actually means we look the complete opposite of it.

[Changing Times 14,687 21.7k]

Just now, LinoJo3 said:

All of that nit picking is missing the point tbh, yes we may come up short on quality to push for top 2 or whatever. But the players are MORE than good enough to hold on to a 3-0 lead vs sheff wed, to not shambolically give the ball away continuously. 
 

I’m sure many people would agree with me that there would be no hard feelings and far less negativity if we just came up short after putting up a good effort all season. It’s the gifts and *** ups and foot shooting that people are *** off about and again our players should be more than good enough to not make these mistakes.

Whatever ‘we’ll drilled’ actually means we look the complete opposite of it.

You're talking about one game mate, I'm talking about the season as a whole.  That nitpicking as you call it is what dictates how well you do over a season.  The fact that we should have a team capable of holding on to a 3-0 lead at home is not in doubt.  But over the course of the season it's the quality/ability of the players that will decide whether you're successful or not.  Last season we missed out on the play offs, and this season our best team is hardly any better than our best team then, so why would we be more successful?  The argument would be, and it's the one that the club would use, that the squad is stronger so you are better in that respect but if the best team you can put out there isn't up to it then the overall squad being stronger doesn't make that much difference.

[LinoJo3 4,958 12.4k]

4 hours ago, Changing Times said:

You're talking about one game mate, I'm talking about the season as a whole.  That nitpicking as you call it is what dictates how well you do over a season.  The fact that we should have a team capable of holding on to a 3-0 lead at home is not in doubt.  But over the course of the season it's the quality/ability of the players that will decide whether you're successful or not.  Last season we missed out on the play offs, and this season our best team is hardly any better than our best team then, so why would we be more successful?  The argument would be, and it's the one that the club would use, that the squad is stronger so you are better in that respect but if the best team you can put out there isn't up to it then the overall squad being stronger doesn't make that much difference.

Not really though is it, the Derby *** up, the Preston *** up, the sheff wed *** up. We’d be sat nicely in 5th if we’d have just done the basics and those are just off the top of my head. Were the worst in the league for goals conceded from unforced errors. It’s not ‘just one game’ at all.

[Changing Times 14,687 21.7k]

5 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

Not really though is it, the Derby *** up, the Preston *** up, the sheff wed *** up. We’d be sat nicely in 5th if we’d have just done the basics and those are just off the top of my head. Were the worst in the league for goals conceded from unforced errors. It’s not ‘just one game’ at all.

You mentioned one game mate that's all I was referencing.  But the fact that things have happened multiple times might then come back to the quality of the players we have.

[LinoJo3 4,958 12.4k]

21 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

You mentioned one game mate that's all I was referencing.  But the fact that things have happened multiple times might then come back to the quality of the players we have.

I refuse to believe the likes of Blackburn, Bristol city, sheff wed have a better squad than us, Westbrom yea maybe but probably debatable.

[Changing Times 14,687 21.7k]

7 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

I refuse to believe the likes of Blackburn, Bristol city, sheff wed have a better squad than us, Westbrom yea maybe but probably debatable.

And until this week we were ahead of two of those clubs.

[HolgateHero 774 2.2k]

Fair, except although far too casual for my liking Dieng wasn't that bad, glover definitely has the most honkers - except Joe Lumley of course, the jury is out on Travers, the attacker pulled his arm in the jump, although the first goal was definitely a honker from him, just smother it lad. What happened to keepers taking everything including the kitchen sink?

Ryan Giles is good at getting crosses in, and he's got a few good crosses in, and also won a few shoulder barges in defensive areas, but he was never going to fix the defence so we can't blame him for the three massive honkers he's pulled in 3 games. It's like he's our honker specialist, brought in at Carrick's express and relentless desire. I was secretly hoping we wouldn't sign him because I could see as clear as a couple of smoky single malts (not too smoky - such as Laphroaig or Lagavulin for eg ) that Ryan Giles' ferocious swinging balls alone would not be enough to get us bang smack back into the playoffs race, we need him to not play for now, Borges was doing alright, Carrick switches the starting line up too much and there's no consistency, except for the continuous stream of gigantic honkers we produce.

On the pitch they've even started ironically banging their heads together, as if to mock Carrick with postmodern artistry. 

Oh the honkers we've conceded this season.

it makes me as sad as when we bought George Saville (no offence George).

When you think about all those honkers we've conceded this season it's really hard to feel proud of the team, you know we're going to shoot ourselves in the nuts at any given opportunity, from what I've seen at least.

Ultimately it's down to the manager, although it's seriously rough for him to keep losing really good players and he's on a hiding to nothing, he needs to get a settled back four - and why it doesn't include fry when fit I've got no idea, especially when you watch edmundens honkers reel. I swear dael fry doesn't get picked because he's not very good at honkers or whatever.

I can see why people are feeling the Boro malaise, makes every single parmo taste increasingly bitter and not enough chips on the side anymore. Regardless 'm definitely not bringing football up in any social scenario at the moment.

Look at what forest are doing in the PL Carrick, fyi, it's the opposite of what we do (TBF Chris Wood is a freak atm). 

Fans have bemoaned Carrick's inflexibility for a while now and it's clear he needs to factor in other ideas. teams sussed out his plan, we shat the bed and lost all of our swagger, and keep dropping the biggest honkers anyone's ever seen so it's time for some outside of his box thinking from Carrick, or maybe he's managing for his next team anyway?

 

TLDR:

After losing LL Carrick has a mountain to climb, it's an incredibly tough environment for a new manager to exist in, but it's encouraging we are setting those standards as a club, surely there is a manager that can make this model sing, Carrick get your singing trousers on lad.

 

Utb

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14 by HolgateHero

[Plastic Goat 460 745]

The club is in a mess. The loanees will be gone at season's end. Hackney and RVB and Coburn will be sold. No decent keeper. No decent defenders or midfielders.Only one striker and he is injury prone.So much for our much vaunted recruitment team.In other words a complete rebuild needed with a new manager.Its all begining to look shambolic. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Bruce 2,524 2.1k]

7 hours ago, HolgateHero said:

Look at what forest are doing in the PL Carrick, fyi, it's the opposite of what we do (TBF Chris Wood is a freak atm). 

That's really interesting. Really simple: attackers attack, defenders defend. What we did for the brief period last season when Coburn was leading the line wasn't a million miles from this. Basically a stripped back 4-2-3-1 that simplifies everyone's jobs.

Oddly, I do think that part of Carrick's tactics is like this. I think the reason that players like Doak and Azaz often don't seem to track back is that Carrick is aiming to win the ball back in defence and then launch a counter-attack with Doak, Azaz and so on already high up the pitch. However, he's asking his defenders to win the ball then play short passes in order to start off the counter and that is proving beyond them and leading to horrible errors. We also don't have a Chris Wood up front who can do what Coburn did and keep the ball under pressure.