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28 minutes ago, ABH said:

Because that’s what the players are taking the knee in support of. Well until the booing started and they decided to pretend it was in support of something else

Except that's not what happened, is it? Taking the knee has ALWAYS been about highlighting racial inequality and to pretend it isn't is disgusting and makes me think you're "one of them"

You know the sort.

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5 minutes ago, Will said:
19 minutes ago, ABH said:

Yeah and fans are booing because they don’t believe in supporting racial equality 

Fixed that for you.

That's an opinion stated as a fact.  Thumbs up though 👍

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4 minutes ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

Except that's not what happened, is it? Taking the knee has ALWAYS been about highlighting racial inequality and to pretend it isn't is disgusting and makes me think you're "one of them"

You know the sort.

Always?  What like forever and ever?  Or like about 5 secs in the context of human history?  Taking a knee hasn't always been about highlighting racial inequality, it's just been used very recently to do so.  Taking a knee has traditionally been used as a way of highlighting your willingness to completely lose your freedom if anything 😉

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Always?  What like forever and ever?  Or like about 5 secs in the context of human history?  Taking a knee hasn't always been about highlighting racial inequality, it's just been used very recently to do so.  Taking a knee has traditionally been used as a way of highlighting your willingness to completely lose your freedom if anything 😉

"Always" meaning since teams in this country started doing it before kick off, smart ***

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9 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

That's an opinion stated as a fact.  Thumbs up though 👍

Woah woah woah, it's actually a fact presented as an opinion thank you very much.

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2 minutes ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

"Always" meaning since teams in this country started doing it before kick off, smart ***

So hardly any time at all then, which is why it shouldn't be a big deal if football in this country found another way to challenge racism and inequality?  This gesture doesn't need to be set in stone, it's not the only possible way to do this, and like it or not, some people are going to continue to link it with things that have nothing to do with he basic message.  Thank you for the compliment at the end 😘

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14 minutes ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

Except that's not what happened, is it? Taking the knee has ALWAYS been about highlighting racial inequality and to pretend it isn't is disgusting and makes me think you're "one of them"

You know the sort.

I’m not pretending anything the players are taking a knee in support of the BLM movement and I’ve not once said that what I’ve posted is my views. But if you want to know one of my views I think your an absolute *** 👍🏻

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Just now, Changing Times said:

So hardly any time at all then, which is why it shouldn't be a big deal if football in this country found another way to challenge racism and inequality?  This gesture doesn't need to be set in stone, it's not the only possible way to do this, and like it or not, some people are going to continue to link it with things that have nothing to do with he basic message.  Thank you for the compliment at the end 😘

I think it's a big deal as it would be seen as cowing to racists.

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13 minutes ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

Except that's not what happened, is it? Taking the knee has ALWAYS been about highlighting racial inequality and to pretend it isn't is disgusting and makes me think you're "one of them"

You know the sort.

Thats rather unfair.

Taking the knee actually started as a one-man protest. It took a while until it was picked up by the BLM movement. There were (and continue to be) mixed messages about what they stand for. Obviously some, probably the majority, simply want equality, but like many large movements, there are other, more radical factions.

The fact our footballers and some clubs have made clear what they believe it represents won't necessarily convince doubters...and will have no effect whatever on the dyed-in-the-wool racists.

 

Again this kind of debate just makes me wish people hadn't blindly copied what was going on in the US.

While its nice to show solidarity with the people suffering police brutality in the US, we really needed a movement of our own that speaks to the specific problems we have here.

 

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Just now, Will said:

I think it's a big deal as it would be seen as cowing to racists.

I don't think it would be, although I can see where you are coming from.  To me, we should have been doing something different from the beginning, and before we were anyway, if truth be told.  We didn't start taking the knee here until after the George Floyd murder.  Very few people even in America were actually doing it before that if you recall.  Once that incident happened, a lot of people started doing it, firstly in America, and I think they were doing it because of the symbolic nature as much as anything else - that they'd knelt on him in killing him.  Sports people in the USA started doing it, and then we followed suit, and in that moment it was completely understandable.  But I think then, with lots of people energised, football and other sports in this country, could have taken their own path and probably linked it with the existing ant-racism campaigns. 

Some people will never go along with BLM, and it's not because they are racist.  Similarly, some people will have little sympathy for George Floyd, not because he was black, but because of his criminal past.  Of course, there are some people who quite clearly wouldn't support BLM because they are racist, and wouldn't have sympathy with Floyd because he was black, we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought otherwise.  However, I think you have to be careful when suggesting that all of them must be racist, as I don't believe that all of them are.  Anglian on here is a person of colour, he has written about his own misgivings with BLM and the kneeling before I believe.  I don't think he's coming at it from a perspective of racism, and there will be some white people who also aren't.

For me though, football could and should have taken it's own path.  There is actually no reason why taking a knee is the way that people must express their ant-racist stance, or rather than footballers or other sports people must do it.  It's a very recent gesture and no more than that.  I'm sure there are different things, maybe even more powerful or meaningful things, that could be done in it's place, and if people still react negatively, then at least we would know what they are doing and why.

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I do not support 'taking the knee', there I have said it. I worked in the States for a couple of years and was shocked by seeing true racism on a daily basis, the antagonism between black and white was just something I had never come across. The BLM was a radical movement started in response to alleged police brutality and unfairness in the justice system, from the start it was seen by most as an anti American thing built on the former African First, American Second credo. The ideals of the original were quickly taken over by radicals on the left and opposed by radicals on the right, which in essence threw petrol on an already blazing fire. When I saw that BLM had jumped the Atlantic gap I feared the worst and sure enough it was seized on by a radical minority of extremists to further their political aims, call them what you like, marxists, anarchists, communists it does not matter. When the BLM gesture was adopted by footballers, (sometimes along with the raised fist black power salute), then it was only a matter of time before the reaction from the other side of the political divide would begin. When this first started in grounds there is little doubt that the footballers were aligning themselves with the American movement, it is only when the true toxicity of that organisations political aims became better known did the back tracking begin, but for a lot of people that was too late, as the gesture will always be associated with the American organisation. My reason for therefore not supporting the knee thing is that it is totally divisive and takes us away from the aims of creating a fairer society, I think it has already put back race relations here by 20 years and now this little easy going country of ours is looking more like The States every day. Why is it not possible to agree on something that unites and not divides, I just do not get why we are persisting with this thing. There is a faction, even on this forum, who believe that to not agree with 'taking the knee' is akin to heracy and that such individuals must be inherently racist, a nazi or simply too thick to understand. Before the insults start i would like to point out that I am none of these things, my daughter in law and gorgeous grandaughter are black and originate from Guyana. I also work with youth team coaching and a lot of those kids are black and ethnic minorities.

 

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13 minutes ago, pikerman said:

I do not support 'taking the knee', there I have said it. I worked in the States for a couple of years and was shocked by seeing true racism on a daily basis, the antagonism between black and white was just something I had never come across. The BLM was a radical movement started in response to alleged police brutality and unfairness in the justice system, from the start it was seen by most as an anti American thing built on the former African First, American Second credo. The ideals of the original were quickly taken over by radicals on the left and opposed by radicals on the right, which in essence threw petrol on an already blazing fire. When I saw that BLM had jumped the Atlantic gap I feared the worst and sure enough it was seized on by a radical minority of extremists to further their political aims, call them what you like, marxists, anarchists, communists it does not matter. When the BLM gesture was adopted by footballers, (sometimes along with the raised fist black power salute), then it was only a matter of time before the reaction from the other side of the political divide would begin. When this first started in grounds there is little doubt that the footballers were aligning themselves with the American movement, it is only when the true toxicity of that organisations political aims became better known did the back tracking begin, but for a lot of people that was too late, as the gesture will always be associated with the American organisation. My reason for therefore not supporting the knee thing is that it is totally divisive and takes us away from the aims of creating a fairer society, I think it has already put back race relations here by 20 years and now this little easy going country of ours is looking more like The States every day. Why is it not possible to agree on something that unites and not divides, I just do not get why we are persisting with this thing. There is a faction, even on this forum, who believe that to not agree with 'taking the knee' is akin to heracy and that such individuals must be inherently racist, a nazi or simply too thick to understand. Before the insults start i would like to point out that I am none of these things, my daughter in law and gorgeous grandaughter are black and originate from Guyana. I also work with youth team coaching and a lot of those kids are black and ethnic minorities.

 

What in the actual *** is this sentence, jesus christ

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1 minute ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

What in the actual *** is this sentence, jesus christ

Yeah I was going to highlight that too. 

@pikermando you not think that rather than going back 20 years, all that's happened is the racist *** people are dealing with is more visible now? That seems far more likely to me.

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1 minute ago, Brunners said:

Yeah I was going to highlight that too. 

@pikermando you not think that rather than going back 20 years, all that's happened is the racist *** people are dealing with is more visible now? That seems far more likely to me.

You may very well be right Brunners, my point was that it has derailed a lot of the good things that were going on.

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