Non-Boro Football

[Changing Times 12,347]

Just now, wilsoncgp said:

Nah mate, couldn't give a toss about what upsets you and doesn't, it's not my fault you look like a space alien.

You have to apologise, you don't have a choice.  Somebody (me) found something offensive that you said to them therefore it is offensive.  That's what you believe so now you need to follow it through and apologise.

[Brunners 7,982]

Although I will say, if THIS tweet is true, well..

 

[SmogDane 4,057]

Not at all .. It kinda support it in fact .. 

My intention was never what you and Wilson took it as, which is the crux of it all .. 

Oh the irony

[SmogDane 4,057]

Example ... I can an will not call you two *** *** *** .. Eventhough I mean it with good intention .. 😛 

But if I did'nt know that those words mean someone who shares a bed with his mother, for other purposes than sleeping ..  If someone had made me believe it meant "niceGentlemen"... and that was my intention .... Then it would be wrong to blame me, for not knowing what those words meant in a tongue that wasn't my native one ..

Don't take offence in this, cause it's well meant 😉❤️

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

7 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

You have to apologise, you don't have a choice.  Somebody (me) found something offensive that you said to them therefore it is offensive.  That's what you believe so now you need to follow it through and apologise.

You seem to have forgotten the bit where I don't actually care what you, your friends, your family, your fellow alien-kind or anyone thinks on the matter because I'm my own man and I make my own decisions and people can take them or leave them. I am principled because I stand by what I say and won't listen to anyone else. I don't care if others know more about the subject than I do because actually they don't, I'm just right.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

16 minutes ago, Brunners said:

Although I will say, if THIS tweet is true, well..

 

It's alright, they probably just meant they travel a lot!

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8 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

You seem to have forgotten the bit where I don't actually care what you, your friends, your family, your fellow alien-kind or anyone thinks on the matter because I'm my own man and I make my own decisions and people can take them or leave them. I am principled because I stand by what I say and won't listen to anyone else. I don't care if others know more about the subject than I do because actually they don't, I'm just right.

Ah but you do care.  Now me, I don't care, so I wouldn't apologise at all in this case, because I wouldn't believe I'd been offensive, so I would be true to myself, and think the other person was being silly.  You on the other hand have already stated what you believe, and you believe that if someone finds offense then there must be offense, yeah?  So to be true to yourself you have to apologise, unless it all was just tripe of course?  Tricky one isn't it?  Do you really believe what you say or not?  I know I believe what I say, and I act accordingly, but it appears that you do not.

[BillyWoofs_shinpad 1,884]

16 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Ah but you do care.  Now me, I don't care, so I wouldn't apologise at all in this case, because I wouldn't believe I'd been offensive, so I would be true to myself, and think the other person was being silly.  You on the other hand have already stated what you believe, and you believe that if someone finds offense then there must be offense, yeah?  So to be true to yourself you have to apologise, unless it all was just tripe of course?  Tricky one isn't it?  Do you really believe what you say or not?  I know I believe what I say, and I act accordingly, but it appears that you do not.

Exactly it’s health and safety gone mad!!

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

1 hour ago, Changing Times said:

You on the other hand have already stated what you believe, and you believe that if someone finds offense then there must be offense, yeah?

OK wow, that's genuinely what you thought I'd said, I thought you were going for an OTT caricature of what I'd said but if that's what you thought I actually believed, here goes.

For your benefit, given you seemingly haven't read what I've said with that being your conclusion, I'll sum up exactly what I've said on the matter. God knows if you'll read it, if you don't care what people think I guess it's not too much of a jump to say you don't care what they say either. Evidence would prove as such in your actual comment.

Our conversation started with me saying he was an idiot because he should know the names of the people he works around on the night and, if not, shouldn't resort to referring to the colour of his skin. You contest that, despite then saying you'd do the same in a different scenario to avoid getting into a scenario where you would even have to use the words 'gadge' or 'pet'. Much of a muchness when it comes to your conclusion but I thought I'd point that out anyway.

The next I said was that emotional reactions to offensive terms are understandable, in response to the idea that there needs to be calmness on both sides. Again, very little to do with your opinions of my beliefs.

Next up was my points on majorities and minorities. How very few people on here could ever understand how the fella felt when he heard that word spoken and yet are quick to jump on it to say it's not a big deal, giving someone you don't know the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tackling potential racism. My point there was how we will rarely understand, as white Brits in this country, what will and won't be offensive to individuals in that bracket. The final thing I said was that acknowledging that before you come to a conclusion is a step forward, that we should listen to those who do suffer from that kind of discrimination before coming to a conclusion. None of that is about saying that saying you're offended means you have undoubtedly been offended.

Once again, I spoke about language and how intent is not the only thing that matters and how we know that because we know for a fact some language is just plain offensive and we didn't come to that conclusion on our own. We worked on that with people of colour the same way we work on language that's offensive to women with women, the same way we show respect to trans people by taking the time to understand the use of pronouns. So in this situation, we should listen to him and respect what he heard and why he was offended by it instead of just saying "he only said black, what's the problem?". He hears a word very similar to the n word and in the heat of the moment he feels he's received racist abuse. Before we'd even found the truth, you had seemingly already decided he hadn't said the n-word, we literally didn't even know and you'd done your little Google search and already decided to treat him with the benefit of the doubt without hearing anything else, that part of it baffles me after everything we've seen this year in tackling inequality.

You'll also notice if you go back to google and translate the n word to Romanian, you end up with the same word.

Then we came to the point where @TeaCider24 came in and actually made some pretty good points... why? Because they were backed up by those that absolutely have suffered that kind of racism. In particular John Barnes, a man who has been tackling racism his whole life, he has a much more significant voice than any of us on the matter, he's much more worth listening to than you or me, regardless of who he would agree with.

Finally, I called you closed-minded, because you said you don't care what anyone thinks on the matter.

My belief comes down to a mixture of things, it comes from listening to how others who suffer prejudice perceive language because language changes and connotations associated with language can change too. Does that mean intent doesn't matter and it's all about how the individual feels? No but it's not just about showing intent to offend, some language moves on and it's not up to us straight, white, cisgender blokes to say what is or isn't acceptable language to use when talking to minority races, to members of the LGBTQ community, to women. We've historically proved that we aren't capable of getting that part right on our own, so we open our minds, listen and learn to move towards a more equal society.

[SmogDane 4,057]

Delete

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

Forest lost again tonight, Derby are only a point off overtaking them (goal difference permitting). 

5 point gap between the bottom 5 teams and 19th place now too.

[Changing Times 12,347]

2 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

OK wow, that's genuinely what you thought I'd said, I thought you were going for an OTT caricature of what I'd said but if that's what you thought I actually believed, here goes.

For your benefit, given you seemingly haven't read what I've said with that being your conclusion, I'll sum up exactly what I've said on the matter. God knows if you'll read it, if you don't care what people think I guess it's not too much of a jump to say you don't care what they say either. Evidence would prove as such in your actual comment.

Our conversation started with me saying he was an idiot because he should know the names of the people he works around on the night and, if not, shouldn't resort to referring to the colour of his skin. You contest that, despite then saying you'd do the same in a different scenario to avoid getting into a scenario where you would even have to use the words 'gadge' or 'pet'. Much of a muchness when it comes to your conclusion but I thought I'd point that out anyway.

The next I said was that emotional reactions to offensive terms are understandable, in response to the idea that there needs to be calmness on both sides. Again, very little to do with your opinions of my beliefs.

Next up was my points on majorities and minorities. How very few people on here could ever understand how the fella felt when he heard that word spoken and yet are quick to jump on it to say it's not a big deal, giving someone you don't know the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tackling potential racism. My point there was how we will rarely understand, as white Brits in this country, what will and won't be offensive to individuals in that bracket. The final thing I said was that acknowledging that before you come to a conclusion is a step forward, that we should listen to those who do suffer from that kind of discrimination before coming to a conclusion. None of that is about saying that saying you're offended means you have undoubtedly been offended.

Once again, I spoke about language and how intent is not the only thing that matters and how we know that because we know for a fact some language is just plain offensive and we didn't come to that conclusion on our own. We worked on that with people of colour the same way we work on language that's offensive to women with women, the same way we show respect to trans people by taking the time to understand the use of pronouns. So in this situation, we should listen to him and respect what he heard and why he was offended by it instead of just saying "he only said black, what's the problem?". He hears a word very similar to the n word and in the heat of the moment he feels he's received racist abuse. Before we'd even found the truth, you had seemingly already decided he hadn't said the n-word, we literally didn't even know and you'd done your little Google search and already decided to treat him with the benefit of the doubt without hearing anything else, that part of it baffles me after everything we've seen this year in tackling inequality.

You'll also notice if you go back to google and translate the n word to Romanian, you end up with the same word.

Then we came to the point where @TeaCider24 came in and actually made some pretty good points... why? Because they were backed up by those that absolutely have suffered that kind of racism. In particular John Barnes, a man who has been tackling racism his whole life, he has a much more significant voice than any of us on the matter, he's much more worth listening to than you or me, regardless of who he would agree with.

Finally, I called you closed-minded, because you said you don't care what anyone thinks on the matter.

My belief comes down to a mixture of things, it comes from listening to how others who suffer prejudice perceive language because language changes and connotations associated with language can change too. Does that mean intent doesn't matter and it's all about how the individual feels? No but it's not just about showing intent to offend, some language moves on and it's not up to us straight, white, cisgender blokes to say what is or isn't acceptable language to use when talking to minority races, to members of the LGBTQ community, to women. We've historically proved that we aren't capable of getting that part right on our own, so we open our minds, listen and learn to move towards a more equal society.

Another lecture and another load of tripe, well done.  You replied to NB4, who said that the intent doesn't matter it's how it's received that matters, by saying that was the crux of it.  I fundamentally disagree with that.  If I've misunderstood your position then fair enough but I don't believe I have, no matter how you now try and qualify what you think, because you walked yourself into a muddle.  It's a lot of words but you're not saying anything of consequence.  The word the official used was black.  That is neither offensive nor racist, and whilst you can write a whole essay, you're not actually addressing the point or the questions I asked you earlier.  Is saying someone who is black, is in fact black, racist?  Can the colour of someone's skin be used to identify them without it being racist?  Answer that rather than write your essays.

I don't care what people think about it.  It's nothing to do with being close minded, it's understanding when something is meant to be an insult or offensive and when it isn't.  People are almost desperate to take offense at things these days, it's like it fills some void in their lives or something.  In the current climate with BLM and everything that's happened over the last few months, this is even more the case when it comes to things regarding racism.  The official used the words black guy to identify a black guy.  He didn't use any offensive words but apparently you'd heard enough to call the fella an idiot anyway.  Thank God for your in depth investigation.

You saw inequality because you looked for it immediately.  That's your skewed view of the world.  Instead of doing that, in my close minded way I wondered why on earth an official would call someone a n****r just like that.  Then I thought about some languages I know, and the word for black in them, and I wondered if perhaps the Romanian word was along those same lines.  It turned out it was.  Once that had been explained to the players and staff, which it clearly was if Demba Ba's comments are accurate, then at that point the matter should have been closed, but it wasn't was it?  Instead they had a big argument and left the pitch, because someone had used a racial slur, when in fact nobody had.  Now that bloke has to live with lots of people, like you, deciding he's either an idiot or a racist, because he called a black man, black, when pointing him out to his colleague.  No actual insult spoken, no actual insult intended, but you're an idiot anyway mate, and as the crux of the matter is not what is intended but how it's received, then it really doesn't matter what his intent was in your view.  Except that you're also kinda saying that it does.  Maybe you need to figure out what you actually believe before lecturing everyone else on what they should believe.

 

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

I've literally just said what I believe and you've ignored it. I know what I believe, I've told you what I believe and yet still despite laying it all out on a plate for you and then summarising how I feel around the matters of equality, you think I'm somehow confused about my own beliefs? Haha. I've done my best to convey that all to you and all you've done is ignore it / insult me for it.

I almost forgot what it was like to be on the other side of CT's "I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it" bull. Nothing ever really changes, though. Cheerio.

[Changing Times 12,347]

4 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I've literally just said what I believe and you've ignored it. I know what I believe, I've told you what I believe and yet still despite laying it all out on a plate for you and then summarising how I feel around the matters of equality, you think I'm somehow confused about my own beliefs? Haha. I've done my best to convey that all to you and all you've done is ignore it / insult me for it.

I almost forgot what it was like to be on the other side of CT's "I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it" bull. Nothing ever really changes, though. Cheerio.

I read all of your posts hence my confusion.  I didn't ignore anything.

Yes, it's another I'm right you're wrong thing quite clearly.

[TeaCider24 12,646]

Apparently the referee is quitting football entirely.