Non-Boro Football

[Brunners 7,981]

10 minutes ago, Will said:

Had your Dad expressed strong feelings about Marxism before let's say, 2019?

Actually, yeah kinda. He's always been pretty vocal within the family about being against any of what he considers "extreme" ways like socialism, marxism & communism.

So to be fair to him at least he's one of a few who's actually always been this way.

[Will 2,958]

Just now, Brunners said:

Actually, yeah kinda. He's always been pretty vocal within the family about being against any of what he considers "extreme" ways like socialism, marxism & communism.

So to be fair to him at least he's one of a few who's actually always been this way.

That's fair enough. I only mention it as I know people personally who have literally never taken any interest whatsoever in politics arguing that it's Marxist and that's why they're against it.

[Brunners 7,981]

Just now, Will said:

That's fair enough. I only mention it as I know people personally who have literally never taken any interest whatsoever in politics arguing that it's Marxist and that's why they're against it.

yeah it's a fair question; I've seen the same thing. AR is right though; I bet the people who say that couldn't tell you a single thing about Marxism if you actually asked them to explain why they're against it.

[wilsoncgp 9,276]

I still think it takes some level of ignorance to continue associating what players do with Marxism. Players, managers, associations, most the football pyramid seems to acknowledge this message and what it stands for and they've told people as such. How much more talking can people do to convince people this is what it is?

And one thing I also get from seeing footballers standing by the gesture they commit to... this is a fight. And you don't gain ground in this fight by succumbing to the kind of pressure they get from boos. Whether they just choose to stop doing it or change the gesture, doing anything but carrying on I'm sure feels like acceptance of the situation they're in. I mean, @AnglianRed is probably right, it doesn't feel like much has changed with the gesture but I can respect why players want to continue doing it because of what stopping it may well represent to themselves.

You can hear it in McAnuff's words there, the lines to footballers feel blurred between what a person could be booing for. Are individuals all booing because of opposition to Marxism or are they booing because they're racist and opportunistic? It takes a certain degree of trust in a society where racism still exists to think every boo is about the former and McAnuff clearly feels the same, he feels like the boos are opposing equality because how else does anyone on this side of the debate think otherwise at this point.

So I can understand why players don't want to change how they deal with it too. When you make something so plain and clear, what your message is about and people still boo? Why is it they, the ones who are trying to fight back against the racism they or their teammates receive on and off the football pitch, have to make the leap of faith and trust people are booing without actually being racists? Why is it the side that has contextualised their gesture time and time again have to give way to those that have no clearly defined message?

I don't know what it was like at the Den by the way but I was there at the Riverside at the weekend and can say there were boos and there were claps. I don't know how others at the game felt but from the middle of the North Stand, it felt like the claps outweighed the boos, or at the very least outlasted them and it felt like the large majority were doing neither. I can kind of understand why this never came into public attention after the Bristol City game because it did seem to be the minority of fans even entering the debate with their own gestures. So I don't know what caused the Den to come into the spotlight.

[Uwe 3,545]

I’ve got a few things to say on this which sounds stupid/racist/idiotic, but please bear with me. 
 

Booing taking of  the knee is a good thing!!

(WTF Uwe you ***)

 In my opinion. If there was no booing this whole gesture would have fizzled out by now. Much like the black players of Boro decided to stop kneeling as they didn’t see any change happening. It became just another thing we do automatically and no real thought is put into it, therefore no impact is made and no change can happen. 
 

Now because of the booing the conversation is still going on. That’s a good thing, it’s in the news, on the tele social media everywhere. It highlights that they’re racist people in the UK. There’s no Hiding from it. It hasn’t fizzled out or faded away it’s still very much at the fore. 
 

But now this is where we need to do our part (us, clubs and society as a whole) . Highlight the persons that are doing it, let them know it’s not acceptable, report them to stewards, police post them on social media. The casual “boo-ers” (ones that just go along with the crowd) will soon fall away leaving this minority that We keep talking about even more marginalised. 
 

That’s my thoughts hope I explained it correctly. I will answer any queries that may need further explanation but will start off with, No I’ve never booed The taking off the knee

[Will 2,958]

3 minutes ago, Uwe said:

I’ve got a few things to say on this which sounds stupid/racist/idiotic, but please bear with me. 
 

Booing taking of  the knee is a good thing!!

(WTF Uwe you ***)

 In my opinion. If there was no booing this whole gesture would have fizzled out by now. Much like the black players of Boro decided to stop kneeling as they didn’t see any change happening. It became just another thing we do automatically and no real thought is put into it, therefore no impact is made and no change can happen. 
 

Now because of the booing the conversation is still going on. That’s a good thing, it’s in the news, on the tele social media everywhere. It highlights that they’re racist people in the UK. There’s no Hiding from it. It hasn’t fizzled out or faded away it’s still very much at the fore. 
 

But now this is where we need to do our part (us, clubs and society as a whole) . Highlight the persons that are doing it, let them know it’s not acceptable, report them to stewards, police post them on social media. The casual “boo-ers” (ones that just go along with the crowd) will soon fall away leaving this minority that We keep talking about even more marginalised. 
 

That’s my thoughts hope I explained it correctly. I will answer any queries that may need further explanation but will start off with, No I’ve never booed The taking off the knee

Sadly as someone who has reported racist abuse at the Riverside before, I know how futile this is. Asked my seat number, brought in to look at CCTV from the ground, point out the 3 people who were doing it, few weeks later I got a call to say they couldn't identify them and that was that.

[AnglianRed 6,320]

Agree with you to an extent @Uwe

The one thing the kneeling & booing is doing is to keep the issue in the spotlight.

I'm just afraid that until some concerted, cohesive action is taken, the situation will continue to be a stalemate, with no change actually happening.

I think it needs more action by the FA, EFL, PL, working with the government, police, whoever else needs to be involved, to start actively targeting offenders and punishing them heavily.

I'm pretty sure surveillance technology has now developed to a point where it should be easy to identify an individual in a football stadium. Yes its probably expensive, but thats where the government should chip in.

 

[Uwe 3,545]

6 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I still think it takes some level of ignorance to continue associating what players do with Marxism. Players, managers, associations, most the football pyramid seems to acknowledge this message and what it stands for and they've told people as such. How much more talking can people do to convince people this is what it is?

And one thing I also get from seeing footballers standing by the gesture they commit to... this is a fight. And you don't gain ground in this fight by succumbing to the kind of pressure they get from boos. Whether they just choose to stop doing it or change the gesture, doing anything but carrying on I'm sure feels like acceptance of the situation they're in. I mean, @AnglianRed is probably right, it doesn't feel like much has changed with the gesture but I can respect why players want to continue doing it because of what stopping it may well represent to themselves.

You can hear it in McAnuff's words there, the lines to footballers feel blurred between what a person could be booing for. Are individuals all booing because of opposition to Marxism or are they booing because they're racist and opportunistic? It takes a certain degree of trust in a society where racism still exists to think every boo is about the former and McAnuff clearly feels the same, he feels like the boos are opposing equality because how else does anyone on this side of the debate think otherwise at this point.

So I can understand why players don't want to change how they deal with it too. When you make something so plain and clear, what your message is about and people still boo? Why is it they, the ones who are trying to fight back against the racism they or their teammates receive on and off the football pitch, have to make the leap of faith and trust people are booing without actually being racists? Why is it the side that has contextualised their gesture time and time again have to give way to those that have no clearly defined message?

I don't know what it was like at the Den by the way but I was there at the Riverside at the weekend and can say there were boos and there were claps. I don't know how others at the game felt but from the middle of the North Stand, it felt like the claps outweighed the boos, or at the very least outlasted them and it felt like the large majority were doing neither. I can kind of understand why this never came into public attention after the Bristol City game because it did seem to be the minority of fans even entering the debate with their own gestures. So I don't know what caused the Den to come into the spotlight.

The thing is, Players, clubs, media and the FA can all say that it’s not political and no way connected with BLM. But to many people that’s what they associate with it. And will never change that connection 
 

For example, imagine if America went back to the original Bellamy salute when they pledge allegiance to the flag. At the start of every baseball/NFL/NBA & school day. Which they use to do long before it was associated with the Nazis. They could state a million times that it had nothing to do with the far right and just going back to and original tradition that has no connections to Nazis. But people would not buy it at all. 
(extreme examples know) 

But as you said, they can’t go back on it now as it works be seen as weakness/defeat etc. And I honestly have no idea how to fix it. just trying to explain why some people will associate it with that part. 
 

 

[wilsoncgp 9,276]

1 minute ago, Uwe said:

The thing is, Players, clubs, media and the FA can all say that it’s not political and no way connected with BLM. But to many people that’s what they associate with it. And will never change that connection 

Aye, that is the case or at least, that's always how the case will be presented if clubs start banning people from grounds for booing taking the knee.

Put it this way, football has been very clear about what the gesture of taking the knee represents. But they have never at all decided on or been clear about what booing represents. If bans for boos are going to be a thing, football as a whole has to make it very clear as to why. They need to take a stance and say "We see these boos as anti-equality" and make that very clear it is not to be tolerated. But I don't see how that realistically happens.

[Uwe 3,545]

7 minutes ago, Will said:

Sadly as someone who has reported racist abuse at the Riverside before, I know how futile this is. Asked my seat number, brought in to look at CCTV from the ground, point out the 3 people who were doing it, few weeks later I got a call to say they couldn't identify them and that was that.

This is sad and disappointing but just keep plugging away one day you might get that one person that listens and acts. But well done in the first instance 👏

[AnglianRed 6,320]

14 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

Aye, that is the case or at least, that's always how the case will be presented if clubs start banning people from grounds for booing taking the knee.

Put it this way, football has been very clear about what the gesture of taking the knee represents. But they have never at all decided on or been clear about what booing represents. If bans for boos are going to be a thing, football as a whole has to make it very clear as to why. They need to take a stance and say "We see these boos as anti-equality" and make that very clear it is not to be tolerated. But I don't see how that realistically happens.

The footballing institutions have never come forward with a statement to clarify this, but enough footballers have explained it very clearly IMO.

Although booing can occur any time during a match, specific booing during the taking of the knee (and other unacceptable behaviour) shouldn't be too hard to isolate.

Again, it would need Q Branch levels of surveillance with cameras and/or mics all through the stands (not just bog standard CCTV either). Undoubtedly expensive, but I would have thought it was at least technically feasible. Even if they couldn't directly ID individuals from footage, if they at least knew the blocks and seat numbers, they could cross reference that with ticket data and ID them that way?

Or something like that. 🤷‍♂️ Just brainstorming here...

 At least it would enable them to take retrospective action?

 

[Brunners 7,981]

46 minutes ago, newyddion said:

So rather that it being an anti racist gesture.. everyone who participates is tricking us. Because what they are actually doing when they are kneeling is showing support for 'Black Lives Matter' who instead of opposing systemic racism in the American justice system which has resulted in the loss of countless innocent black lives and unnecessary periods of incarceration (caused in part by the corrupt private influence on legislation and running prisons for profit) who instead of that are 'Marxist Scum' who support Marxism  a political and economic theory where a society has no classes, where every person within the society works for a common good. An example of which would be replacing private ownership with co-operative ownership. In practice this could work in a way that meant instead of handing out billions of pounds of public monies to prop up failing tory businesses, or handing out uncompetitive contracts to tory donors who are not fit to deliver the goods and services they are engaged for.. lets say PPE contracts for covid, or track and trace apps to folks that have previously had no experience in these fields. Instead of all that wasted money filling the pockets of a privileged unqualified few who just happened to go to the same school as the guy who writes the checks that we have to pay for (that out kids and grandkids will have to pay for) instead of that we could put the money into some sort of collective pot that would mean NHS treatment remained high quality and free at the point of services and we could have a public transport system that was affordable for all? URRRRGGGH!! 

I think Milwall should ditch taking the knee and look for an alternative gesture if it is taking the knee that is the problem and it's not that they are just a bunch of racists. This salute from 1968 could be adopted and is a well known and established ant racist gesture. 

If that happens and it ends up looking like this..

then 'kick it out' kick racism out of football. kick the club out of the football league.

Job Done

First off; yes that's the long and short of it, my dad will always claim to be "booing the marxist ideology behind BLM" and I'll never change that opinion of his unfortunately.

Actually your first image would cause a lot of problems too. They will tell you that's a racist gesture. To them the black power symbol is as much a hate gesture as a Nazi salute, because it was used by the Black Panthers. You're never going to win unfortunately.

[Redcar Rioja 5,974]

There is a serious problem in our society where values and respect are almost non existent. Kids run riot through Estates with zero consequences. Teachers struggle to control disruptive behaviour at the expense of students who want to learn again with no consequences. Kids run around mob like assaulting people (only this week in Linthorpe Road in the town centre) because they can with no fear.

This isn't a Teesside problem it is right across the UK and to a lesser or greater extent other regions and countries across the world as well. History has sadly been peppered with hate and intolerance be it tribes or religion or colour or accents etc. Mankind has never been "accepting", at best I would say tolerant to a degree but it is never far beneath the surface. How many on here dislike the plight of the Palestinians but at the same time yet shocked at the barbarity of the Nazi Concentration camps or further back Pogroms? For one group of people to be the oppressed to now seemingly be the oppressor indicates that human nature struggles to find a balance and with power comes disregard to others. 

The British Army have been deployed far and wide with Irish, Scots, Welsh and English lads fighting side by side, shoulder to shoulder yet back home they fight with each because of those very same nationalities and indeed in Scotland and Ireland even in the same Cities because of their place of worship they affiliate with (as oppose to actually attend making it more ridiculous).

We had Poles, Indians, French all fighting with us defending these shores, repelling the Nazi's yet it didn't take long for those ties to be discarded, resorting back to Nationalism. The case of the Gurkha's and their incredible bravery yet despicable treatment by the British Government tells me that racism is very and shamelessly deep rooted in society.

The treatment of George Floyd shocked and disgusted the majority of decent minded people and I would guess even those who have a tendency to be racist. The resultant protests carried the support of many but the then subsequent blaming of historical white figures was not a clever political move and split opinions alienating some. There's an old saying, "you can't face the future looking backwards". White people did travel the world and conquer places and indigenous people were treated disgracefully but not all white people did. In fact many of those white people were subjected to the "Cat o' nine tails" to comply and indeed had probably been Press-Ganged in the first place, never seeing family, friends or loved ones ever again, they were slaves themselves in all but name.

There are historic incidents of young Scottish and Irish Girls in the US in "servitude" being forcibly raped with Black Slaves to produce a more pleasing to the eye slave for domestic chores by their "owners". White people are responsible for many of the woes and injustices of the world but not all white people, the issue instead for me is Power and Influence. People with power and money done what they wanted and had no respect for anyone beneath their "status" and everyone and everything was fair game in their lust to satisfy their excesses. It still is today and current "alleged" events in New York and Balmoral lends credence.

Today in the Middle East slavery is commonplace and trade in young Africans is blatant. We can fix that but we can't fix the past. The construction of World Cup Football Stadia is being been done right now with the labour of those less fortunate yet Football's silence is deafening. The words, power, influence and corruption come to mind as to how it has come about and just accepted. In China we have the situation with the treatment of the Uighurs and in India the caste system with sickening and disgusting acts of depravity occurring daily and generally without any punishment.

I think the BLM movement lost a few when their ire was seemingly (understandably) directed at white people in general rather than the real root cause, people with power. It then became muddied over here and provided an opportunity to discredit and fill the minds of those mentioned in my opening paragraph to feel threatened or to close ranks. The lack of opportunity that exists for many in the UK (second and third generations) along with the ability to do what they want with impunity gives rise to the opportunity to feed what is a very poor understanding of the world not helped by what will also inevitably be a low educational attainment. Most couldn't even spell Marxism let alone have heard of it.

Whether it's Tony Blair or Boris Johnson the importance of having campaign leaders (or spin doctors more accurately) cannot be underestimated. Taking the knee and BLM became intrinsically linked which wasn't a good PR move. Equality, Equity, Diversification and Inclusion for everyone from all walks of life and from all backgrounds is the ideal but as long as one group identifies or campaigns as being different from another for whatever reason History just repeats itself ad nauseum and will continue to do so. 

Taking the knee is a just and worthy cause but its lost it's focus and as soon as people like Southgate for example has to redefine what it really means and what it doesn't intend to mean just indicates that it lost it's way somewhere. Unless and until all of mankind directs it's ire at the root cause, those with the power and influence who continue to amass great wealth and creature comforts at the expense of the many, then dividing and conquering will win the day just as it has for thousands of years.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Redcar Rioja

[ABH 470]

I don’t know where people get the idea from that players taking the knee is in support of BLM 🤔

 

[Brunners 7,981]

the BLM campaign not the org, which need to be considered separate entities. The campaign has far outgrown the beliefs of the organisation.