Non-Boro Football

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2 hours ago, GrimsbyBoro said:

Fully agree, I think it’s important to remember they have been cheating for years and administration isn’t a punishment for that cheating.

They deliberately changed the amortising of players to avoid penalties. Messed about with the submission of accounts and avoided relegation by threatening to take the EFL to court over FFP.

Any that’s before the dodgy asset sale to himself and a third party paying wages.

Derby gambled that they could cheat and get promoted like Bournemouth and QPR did. 

It didn’t happen and they were caught with their pants down.

If the EFL don’t push through with punishing them it shows them as impotent and makes a mockery out of the teams that try to do things right.

Just to be clear, the only thing that they've actually done wrong is the amortisation policy, and even that is debatable.  That's the only thing that they were found guilty of by that panel, and they've been fined £100k for that. None of the other things you've mentioned there were an issue.  Now, the resubmission of the accounts with a standard amortisation policy is what should lead to them failing FFP, and that's where the points deduction will come in, but for that only.

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36 minutes ago, KeithLambsFaxMachine said:

Not a lawyer, but I would guess it would be a civil, breach of contract case, if they have stated rules and regulations, but then fail to apply them. The court would have power to adjudge this aspect. 

They haven't failed to apply them though.  There has been an investigation, and there has already been a fine imposed on Derby, and when their resubmitted accounts fail FFP then there will be a points deduction applied.  I'm assuming Gibson is still taking action against the league rather than Derby County, as he could claim that their governance was inadequate perhaps.  It's all a load of *** at the end of the day.  FFP shouldn't exist as it clearly doesn't work in the way that they'd envisioned it, and season's should be decided on the field not in court or via disciplinary panels.

[SouthernSmoggie 4,242]

2 hours ago, nunthorpered said:

Still better than the man we have now

Not for me... at least we field some attackers and occasionally score under Warnock. 

But it's like saying being slapped round the face is better than being kicked in the nuts.

I would obviously prefer neither. 

[TeaCider24 12,637]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/09/23/derby-set-additional-nine-point-deduction-ending-lingering-hopes/amp/

The administrators are apparently set to accept the 9 point deduction, according to John Percy of the Telegraph.

Good.

Don't wish them any ill will beyond this season, hopefully Sunderland fail to get promoted this season and Derby go up ahead of them next season.

[Duvel 2,446]

1 hour ago, Changing Times said:

Are you taking the ***?  We were in their position once, and it came close to us ending without a football club at all.  A bit before my time as a fan but not various relatives of mine.  I'm amazed that any Boro fan would have that attitude.    

No not at all and I think in hindsight we would have come back as a phoenix club and eventually made our way back to the league. 

My point is that modern football is very little fun for me and a lot of other fans at our level. 

Its easy for me to say but I honestly think it would be more fun seeing a club of our size climb through the leagues than it would spending 10 seasons in the second tier going nowhere. 

[Duvel 2,446]

1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

I don't really get what that's got to do with anything I've said there? Whether Gibson wins or loses his case, he and Boro won't be much better or worse off and neither will Morris. My point is it's not Derby fans' fault but they are the ones who will lose out if they go out of business and have to start over, nobody else. Morris is the biggest problem here and he's going to walk out of this with not a care in the world. In what way is this good for Gibson, MFC or English football?

Well I'm sure you are saying the fans will suffer because of a fall out between two owners. 

If there is further punishment it will be because rules have been broken, thats not the fault of Gibson so the fans should blame Mel Morris. 

Let's say the only punishment they face is the 12 point ban, they stay up this season and get bought out by another owner, have they really been punished? 

The new owner could just go out and break ffp rules next season and nothing will have changed. 

[wilsoncgp 9,281]

1 minute ago, Duvel said:

Well I'm sure you are saying the fans will suffer because of a fall out between two owners. 

If there is further punishment it will be because rules have been broken, thats not the fault of Gibson so the fans should blame Mel Morris. 

Let's say the only punishment they face is the 12 point ban, they stay up this season and get bought out by another owner, have they really been punished? 

The new owner could just go out and break ffp rules next season and nothing will have changed. 

The point is Gibson is challenging Derby, this case as I've said doesn't seem to be about us asking the EFL to apply their laws, we are suing Derby for damages against us in particular, as if their practices have in any way put us in our crappy predicament over the past few years. If that is what Gibson's case is then it's nothing more than frivolous deflection. We are where we are because of us, no bugger else. If I'm wrong on this I'll hold my hands up but nobody seems to be saying otherwise on here.

If as TeaCider mentioned earlier that the only 'punishment' they get is the 12-point administration thing then yeah, they haven't been rightfully punished to the full extent. But that sounds like its going to be the tip of the iceberg for them by most accounts I've seen and whilst the EFL continue to rightfully apply punishments as and when necessary now, there's no reason for us in particular to continue going after Derby. We've got sweet feck all to gain from digging the knife in further from our club's perspective other than trying to run them into the ground for stealing Martyn frigging Waghorn from us. It's pathetic and it's doing absolutely sod all to the man who actually cheated the system to begin with.

We and the rest of the fans in the EFL should be standing up for their fans and uniting together against Morris and other crappy owners like him but instead some of our fans are hoping we really stick it to their club and I'm not at all shocked to see Derby fans aren't happy about that, I wouldn't be either. I don't remember your specific take on this other situation but I just can't understand how some of the same people who were so peeved by what happened to Bury now couldn't give two frigs what happens to Derby as a result of all this. It should be more than enough to have a chuckle at them and how many of them shared the Morris puppetmaster image and all that on Twitter but for some reason that level of schadenfreude isn't enough, we want to inflict proper suffering on them and I've no idea why.

[Downsouth 6,326]

I wonder in hindsight if Derby would have prefered the 9 point deduction last season?

Also my understanding that there maybe additional points added to the current tally and if so what time frame will those be imposed?

[TeaCider24 12,637]

1 hour ago, TeaCider24 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/09/23/derby-set-additional-nine-point-deduction-ending-lingering-hopes/amp/

The administrators are apparently set to accept the 9 point deduction, according to John Percy of the Telegraph.

Good.

Don't wish them any ill will beyond this season, hopefully Sunderland fail to get promoted this season and Derby go up ahead of them next season.

 

Just so this doesn't get lost at the bottom of the last page.

They are accepting the punishment and deduction.

[GrimsbyBoro 1,968]

2 hours ago, Changing Times said:

Just to be clear, the only thing that they've actually done wrong is the amortisation policy, and even that is debatable.  

Not sure how it’s debatable when there is an agreed upon set format for FFP.

They knew the format, previously used it, and only changed when it was evident they couldn’t pass FFP by using the agreed upon method. This came after vastly overspending for several years to try and get promoted.

The FFP Is quite a crude method but it makes everyone equal in methodology. Whilst in accounting their are other ways of amortising assets there isn’t FFP. 

[Brunners 7,982]

Bolton cut all betting sponsorships immediately.

Fair play Bolton.

[Duvel 2,446]

1 hour ago, wilsoncgp said:

The point is Gibson is challenging Derby, this case as I've said doesn't seem to be about us asking the EFL to apply their laws, we are suing Derby for damages against us in particular, as if their practices have in any way put us in our crappy predicament over the past few years. If that is what Gibson's case is then it's nothing more than frivolous deflection. We are where we are because of us, no bugger else. If I'm wrong on this I'll hold my hands up but nobody seems to be saying otherwise on here.

If as TeaCider mentioned earlier that the only 'punishment' they get is the 12-point administration thing then yeah, they haven't been rightfully punished to the full extent. But that sounds like its going to be the tip of the iceberg for them by most accounts I've seen and whilst the EFL continue to rightfully apply punishments as and when necessary now, there's no reason for us in particular to continue going after Derby. We've got sweet feck all to gain from digging the knife in further from our club's perspective other than trying to run them into the ground for stealing Martyn frigging Waghorn from us. It's pathetic and it's doing absolutely sod all to the man who actually cheated the system to begin with.

We and the rest of the fans in the EFL should be standing up for their fans and uniting together against Morris and other crappy owners like him but instead some of our fans are hoping we really stick it to their club and I'm not at all shocked to see Derby fans aren't happy about that, I wouldn't be either. I don't remember your specific take on this other situation but I just can't understand how some of the same people who were so peeved by what happened to Bury now couldn't give two frigs what happens to Derby as a result of all this. It should be more than enough to have a chuckle at them and how many of them shared the Morris puppetmaster image and all that on Twitter but for some reason that level of schadenfreude isn't enough, we want to inflict proper suffering on them and I've no idea why.

I don't think its a case of Gibson deflecting attention away from his own failings I think its a case of wanting a club punishing for every offence they've committed, the reason for that I would imagine is that it might serve as a deterrent for other clubs that might try to cheat the system. Gibson is looking after our clubs interests rather than stick the knife in. 

As for wanting to inflict suffering, come on we're talking about a football team getting demoted a division its not the holocaust. 

Finally for the Derby fans that have been giving it the big shot on their forum and on social media for the last couple of years, I've got no sympathy at all. They rolled the dice and lost. 

I'm sure some fans will be devastated but its a football club and they'll bounce back, despite what Shankly said its not a matter of life or death. By the sounds of things they'll end up in the division they should have been in anyway after last season. 

Give it a few years and they'll be back where they are now, there's far worse things that can happen in life than seeing your football team getting relegated. 

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1 hour ago, GrimsbyBoro said:

Not sure how it’s debatable when there is an agreed upon set format for FFP.

They knew the format, previously used it, and only changed when it was evident they couldn’t pass FFP by using the agreed upon method. This came after vastly overspending for several years to try and get promoted.

The FFP Is quite a crude method but it makes everyone equal in methodology. Whilst in accounting their are other ways of amortising assets there isn’t FFP. 

Because player amortisation is just that, and has nothing to do with FFP.  I think the league's position on it is that it has to meet FR102 requirements, and that is basically it.  Derby's position is that it did.  The League's position is that it didn't.  The panel found in favour of the league in that regard, and that's what lead to the 100k fine.  The end result of that was that Derby were required to resubmit their accounts with a different amortisation method, and this is where FFP comes into it because they will apparently fail FFP, and thus they get the 9 point deduction.  Apparently they failed it by £4m.  So this is absolutely clear, if they had met FFP then there wouldn't be any points deduction at all - the punishment for the amortisation method used was the fine.

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3 hours ago, Duvel said:

No not at all and I think in hindsight we would have come back as a phoenix club and eventually made our way back to the league. 

My point is that modern football is very little fun for me and a lot of other fans at our level. 

Its easy for me to say but I honestly think it would be more fun seeing a club of our size climb through the leagues than it would spending 10 seasons in the second tier going nowhere. 

You think we'd have come back as a phoenix club back then?  Teesside was on it's ***, and phoenix clubs are a little bit more common now than then.  There's nothing to suggest we'd have a club to support at all.

[TLF10 4,496]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11764/12415488/jonson-clarke-harris-peterborough-striker-handed-four-match-ban-fined-5300-for-historical-social-media-posts
 

^that does not bode well for Marc Bola.