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22 minutes ago, TLF10 said:

It doesn't, but Clarke-Harris was an adult when he made his posts, Bola was a child.

Hopefully that provides mitigation.

 

Edited by TeaCider24
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41 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

You think we'd have come back as a phoenix club back then?  Teesside was on it's ***, and phoenix clubs are a little bit more common now than then.  There's nothing to suggest we'd have a club to support at all.

Maybe not immediately but I'm sure we would have done eventually. 

Even at our lowest point we were getting 5k/6k crowds, I'm sure there would have been enough appetite amongst those fans to at least start up a Northern league club based out of Middlesbrough. 

We're not Man United but there was enough passion in the town to sustain a football league club, in non league terms we would have been an absolute giant once the ball got rolling in the same way Derby would be. 

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43 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Because player amortisation is just that, and has nothing to do with FFP.  I think the league's position on it is that it has to meet FR102 requirements, and that is basically it.  Derby's position is that it did.  The League's position is that it didn't.  The panel found in favour of the league in that regard, and that's what lead to the 100k fine.  The end result of that was that Derby were required to resubmit their accounts with a different amortisation method, and this is where FFP comes into it because they will apparently fail FFP, and thus they get the 9 point deduction.  Apparently they failed it by £4m.  So this is absolutely clear, if they had met FFP then there wouldn't be any points deduction at all - the punishment for the amortisation method used was the fine.

So amortisation has nothing to do with FFP

but when they do the amortisation there way they pass FFP but when they do it the standard agreed way they fail FFP but not because of amortisation?????

Just a happy coincidence.

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47 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

It doesn't, but Clarke-Harris was an adult when he made his posts, Bola was a child.

Hopefully that provides mitigation.

 

Ah good point. Did not think of that. Really cant afford to lose him.

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2 hours ago, Duvel said:

As for wanting to inflict suffering, come on we're talking about a football team getting demoted a division its not the holocaust. 

You think I've been banging on about fans' suffering because I thought it was limited to being demoted a division? Have you actually been reading what I've said?

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3 hours ago, GrimsbyBoro said:

Not sure how it’s debatable when there is an agreed upon set format for FFP.

They knew the format, previously used it, and only changed when it was evident they couldn’t pass FFP by using the agreed upon method. This came after vastly overspending for several years to try and get promoted.

The FFP Is quite a crude method but it makes everyone equal in methodology. Whilst in accounting their are other ways of amortising assets there isn’t FFP. 

Sorry, you're not understanding me.  I'm saying it has nothing to do with FFP, it's accountancy.  Financial Fair Play is the League's own interpretation of what is good or bad financial management of a football club.  The League use the accounts to determine whether a club is in breach of their FFP rules.  This is why they were only fined for using a different method, there was no points deduction for it.  I don't think that the league has a set way that the accounts must be shown, it's just that they have to meet existing financial regulations.

Derby's position was, and still is, that their method met the requirements.  The League signed off on it, although I believe there is some suggestion that either they didn't understand what Derby were saying they were doing, or that it wasn't clearly stated in the accounts. Of course Derby did it to make their accounts look more favourable for FFP but that's not an issue in itself as long as it meets the requirements, the disagreement was whether it did or didn't.

Although it's a separate issue, I'd argue that a club losing ownership of it's own ground is a worse position to be put in than spending more than whatever the league has decided is too much, but may actually be nothing at all to the owner.  Yet the league allows this when it's simply a way around their own FFP rules.

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25 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

You think I've been banging on about fans' suffering because I thought it was limited to being demoted a division? Have you actually been reading what I've said?

What are you banging on about then? 

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2 hours ago, Duvel said:

What are you banging on about then? 

I'm on about the potential to put Derby out of business. To leave fans without a club. Not only did I allude to that when talking about Bury but you literally quoted me earlier when I said:

it's not Derby fans' fault but they are the ones who will lose out if they go out of business and have to start over, nobody else.

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5 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

I'm on about the potential to put Derby out of business. To leave fans without a club. Not only did I allude to that when talking about Bury but you literally quoted me earlier when I said:

it's not Derby fans' fault but they are the ones who will lose out if they go out of business and have to start over, nobody else.

Surely further punishment would be another points deduction wouldn't it? How will that put them out of business? 

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Anyone else looking forward to the Ryder Cup? 


I was up at the driving range the other day and it’s obviously having an affect with more attendance then usual. 
Its good to see a fair amount of youngsters and I watched a few hitting balls effortlessly something I can only dream of.
 

All the expensive gear and no idea is what I refer myself. My theory being as long as you don’t play with anyone regularly then you can claim to be just having a bad day. Dear Lord you should see some of my golfing attire I would turn up in at some of the elite course around the UAE. John Daly, Loud Mouth gear. It screams I AM HERE! 

I am not alone spending over a grand and half on clubs, four to five hundred of shoes and attire and £150 to £400 a game only to loose 6 to 10 balls in lakes or woods at over £2 a pop. A driver cost near £500 and I have two I can’t use. 
On top of all that then there are the lessons and therapy sessions.. 

As do others i watch and listen to videos for hours and hours looking for guidance, but all I seem to do is inherit faults they are coaching to avoid, most I never heard of or had in the first place. My biggest bug on the driving range is working through a bucket of 90 balls, some good and bad shoots which finally show promise only to screw the last ball. Can’t leave on a bad shot so then go buy a smaller bucket until getting one good shot them leave. Then watch more videos. 

I am very competitive and played and competed fairly well in most sport or games, football, rugby, field events, darts, pool etc but golf gets my respect. 

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2 hours ago, Duvel said:

Surely further punishment would be another points deduction wouldn't it? How will that put them out of business? 

Well its not guaranteed to, but relegation brings with it multiple revenue hits, in terms of sponsorship, TV money, reduced fan attendance (and/or what they can charge for season and matchday tickets).

If the club's finances aren't strong enough to take that hit, it could end up going out of business altogether.

For a club already financially deep in the mire like Derby it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, trying to service huge debts, while still paying their staff, bills etc. with a lot less revenue.

This is why I'm all for greater punishments for owners, instead of the current situation where the club ends up bearing the brunt of the consequences.

 

Edited by AnglianRed
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2 hours ago, Duvel said:

Surely further punishment would be another points deduction wouldn't it? How will that put them out of business? 

If our case is against Derby, how are we supposed to receive damages in form of them losing points? I feel like we're really off in different directions here and that could be me misunderstanding this case to be fair but nobody seems to be correcting me on it.

If we are saying Derby's financial practices damaged us directly, us winning that case surely represents further financial punishment for Derby, where that money comes to us. We can't take their points. That's my understanding of this, it's nowt to do with the EFL, it's a direct claim from us against them.

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Just a quick note on the Boro suing Derby, we will have already amassed legal fees which could be a significant amount. Letting the case go we essentially say goodbye to this money, if we push on and win the case Derby are (potentially as not always the case) liable for these costs as well as any financial penalties imposed. A decent barrister now charges approx 3k a day, add on a legal support team which could easily add another 3k you're looking at 6k a day. 60 days worth of legal advice could be a reasonable assumption which sit's you at 360k plus interest.....I wouldn't write that off! 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see us reach an agreement with the administrators over these costs and then the case will be dropped.

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16 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

The point is Gibson is challenging Derby, this case as I've said doesn't seem to be about us asking the EFL to apply their laws, we are suing Derby for damages against us in particular, as if their practices have in any way put us in our crappy predicament over the past few years. If that is what Gibson's case is then it's nothing more than frivolous deflection. We are where we are because of us, no bugger else. If I'm wrong on this I'll hold my hands up but nobody seems to be saying otherwise on here.

If as TeaCider mentioned earlier that the only 'punishment' they get is the 12-point administration thing then yeah, they haven't been rightfully punished to the full extent. But that sounds like its going to be the tip of the iceberg for them by most accounts I've seen and whilst the EFL continue to rightfully apply punishments as and when necessary now, there's no reason for us in particular to continue going after Derby. We've got sweet feck all to gain from digging the knife in further from our club's perspective other than trying to run them into the ground for stealing Martyn frigging Waghorn from us. It's pathetic and it's doing absolutely sod all to the man who actually cheated the system to begin with.

We and the rest of the fans in the EFL should be standing up for their fans and uniting together against Morris and other crappy owners like him but instead some of our fans are hoping we really stick it to their club and I'm not at all shocked to see Derby fans aren't happy about that, I wouldn't be either. I don't remember your specific take on this other situation but I just can't understand how some of the same people who were so peeved by what happened to Bury now couldn't give two frigs what happens to Derby as a result of all this. It should be more than enough to have a chuckle at them and how many of them shared the Morris puppetmaster image and all that on Twitter but for some reason that level of schadenfreude isn't enough, we want to inflict proper suffering on them and I've no idea why.

Because they're bellends.

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14 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

If we are saying Derby's financial practices damaged us directly, us winning that case surely represents further financial punishment for Derby, where that money comes to us. We can’t take their points. That's my understanding of this, it's nowt to do with the EFL, it's a direct claim from us against them.

Now you are on to something @wilsoncgp. We take their 21 points and we go up as champions 💪 👏👏👏👏 I like it 

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