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7 minutes ago, diggerlad07 said:

Its funny how fans see the game differently isn't it? 

I have a Forest fan as a friend and hes been raving about him as well since he signed, however when i pointed out my reasoning for thinking spence is a poor player for example poor positioning, he said he actually agreed that part of his game was extremely poor and it had cost Forest a few goals especially at set pieces but he doesnt mind because of his attacking play.

Maybe i am old school (at age of 33) but i like my defenders to be able to defend first and foremost and if they can attack then thats a bonus and makes them a little bit more special.

 

Kind of begs the question of what Spence really is, doesn't it?

Full back, wing-back, or winger? He's got attributes for all the positions but drawbacks too. I do think with some proper defensive coaching there's a good attacking right-back in there somewhere. 

Can't say I was ever overly impressed with him here, although there is the caveat that we've been a struggling, poorly coached team for years now. Hardly the place to mould a young promising player.

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9 minutes ago, SouthernSmoggie said:

Kind of begs the question of what Spence really is, doesn't it?

Full back, wing-back, or winger? He's got attributes for all the positions but drawbacks too. I do think with some proper defensive coaching there's a good attacking right-back in there somewhere. 

Can't say I was ever overly impressed with him here, although there is the caveat that we've been a struggling, poorly coached team for years now. Hardly the place to mould a young promising player.

Yeah id go along with everything you said tbh. Excellent post!

As much as i do not like Warnock, if Spence was going to improve defensively under a manager than there is nobody better imo than warnock and his coaching staff but arguably you could say Spence has got worse under him. Whether that may be because that Warnock is asking in depth instructions, i don't know.

Either way if the majority of forest fans are happy with him, then i look forward to selling him for a profit to either them or someone else. 

Got to say he was excellent in parts against Bristol city and QPR but again at times, when it came to defensive shape he was all over the place and passing responsibility on. His inconsistency is what is going to prevent him going onto be a regular player above us.

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1 hour ago, diggerlad07 said:

Yeah id go along with everything you said tbh. Excellent post!

As much as i do not like Warnock, if Spence was going to improve defensively under a manager than there is nobody better imo than warnock and his coaching staff but arguably you could say Spence has got worse under him.

This season I think he was showing a new maturity and was starting to live up to the promise he had shown when he first broke through. I think Dijksteel is stronger defensively but Spence was really putting in the hard yards in games in a way I hadn't see him do before. Whether that was due to Warnock or in spite of Warnock is hard to tell and I doubt we'll ever know now.  Probably our best hope is that he keeps playing well and one of this year's promoted sides fork out a reasonable fee for him next summer.

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1 hour ago, diggerlad07 said:

As much as i do not like Warnock, if Spence was going to improve defensively under a manager than there is nobody better imo than warnock and his coaching staff but arguably you could say Spence has got worse under him. Whether that may be because that Warnock is asking in depth instructions, i don't know.

You couldn't say that, or rather you could but it would be incorrect.

As for people improving defensively under a manager, the only player on our books that has improved under Warnock is Bola.  Far more players have declined with him here than improved.  Defensively as a group we haven't improved under Warnock either so I don't know on what basis you think there is nobody better than Warnock?  Find that utterly bizarre be honest.  We've had two better 'defensive' managers than Warnock here in the last 5 years in Karanka and Pulis.  If I want my fullbacks to be over the other side of the pitch, or have a couple of players chasing the same opposition player then I'll ask for Warnock, for actual grown up defending there are far better out there.  

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1 hour ago, Changing Times said:

You couldn't say that, or rather you could but it would be incorrect.

As for people improving defensively under a manager, the only player on our books that has improved under Warnock is Bola.  Far more players have declined with him here than improved.  Defensively as a group we haven't improved under Warnock either so I don't know on what basis you think there is nobody better than Warnock?  Find that utterly bizarre be honest.  We've had two better 'defensive' managers than Warnock here in the last 5 years in Karanka and Pulis.  If I want my fullbacks to be over the other side of the pitch, or have a couple of players chasing the same opposition player then I'll ask for Warnock, for actual grown up defending there are far better out there.  

Warnock builds his team on strong foundations and prominently his defence (full backs) over the years have been known more defensive 1st rather than attacking.. Obviously there is the odd exception like Bennett at Cardiff but at QPR he had Onohua and players like that who were solid full backs and if they offered something in the final 3rd then great but he didn't build his side round it. (Similar to Pulis I guess but didn't play CB's in full back positions).

Whilst Warnock's been in charge with us he's had Dijksteel and other full backs man marking players and following them all over the pitch but over the course of his career he hasn't done that apart from us and Cardiff which doesn't reflect his managerial career. 

Personally I think just criticising our defending doesn't reflect a true story at certain times as I havent see a defence so exposed as ours because our midfield is non existent at helping them . (One of my reasons why I don't think Warnock is the man to take us forward).

Not sure you agree with me but one thing that has really surprised me under warnock's tenure at us is how exposed we look and have no solid foundations... Likes of him and McCarththy built their careers on being solid and both this year have extremely struggled which just shows how the game has progressed over their tactics.

 

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55 minutes ago, diggerlad07 said:

Warnock builds his team on strong foundations and prominently his defence (full backs) over the years have been known more defensive 1st rather than attacking.. Obviously there is the odd exception like Bennett at Cardiff but at QPR he had Onohua and players like that who were solid full backs and if they offered something in the final 3rd then great but he didn't build his side round it. (Similar to Pulis I guess but didn't play CB's in full back positions).

Whilst Warnock's been in charge with us he's had Dijksteel and other full backs man marking players and following them all over the pitch but over the course of his career he hasn't done that apart from us and Cardiff which doesn't reflect his managerial career. 

Personally I think just criticising our defending doesn't reflect a true story at certain times as I havent see a defence so exposed as ours because our midfield is non existent at helping them . (One of my reasons why I don't think Warnock is the man to take us forward).

Not sure you agree with me but one thing that has really surprised me under warnock's tenure at us is how exposed we look and have no solid foundations... Likes of him and McCarththy built their careers on being solid and both this year have extremely struggled which just shows how the game has progressed over their tactics.

 

I agree that the midfield hasn't done enough but I do think that the man marking thing hasn't helped us at all.  Why he's done that here I have no idea but I'm sure there is a reason for it as I doubt he'd just do it for the sake of it.  Seems weird to me unless you believe your team is fitter or faster maybe so you think your players can follow the opposition all game long?  Or you believe your players are basically thicker than the opposition so you try to make it as simple as possible for them?  It's also fair to say that Howson is not a defensive midfielder but is being asked to do it anyway, which isn't really fair on him, and he was doing it last season even when we had Morsy available to play there.  

Funny thing is though that defensively we aren't that bad.  We're about where we've been for most of the last 5 years or so actually in terms of being one of the better sides in the division or at least not one of the worst.  We got a bit worse under Woodgate compared to Karanka, Monk, and Pulis, but even then we were around 10th/12th I believe in goals conceded - and that for us was pretty bad!  Last season was actually the same under Warnock, I think we were about 12th but we conceded fewer goals  This season we've conceded the 4th fewest goals in the league, and we're just over a goal a game, which is where we were last season.  Obviously under Pulis and Karanka we were better than that by a decent margin but that's still pretty good.  We've only faced the 6th fewest shots as well, so again that says it's solid enough.  Something I did noticed though, which may mean something or nothing, I have no idea.  We actually make the most tackles per game in the league apparently but we make a low number of interceptions - 5th fewest in the league.  That probably backs up what we've seen with our own eyes where teams are able to play through us quite easily but we don't concede tons of goals.

The problems are more at the other end than defensively.   We aren't as good under Warnock as we have been with previous managers, but we aren't terrible either.  I think before the season I said that we basically had to find 20 goals from somewhere - 20 more goals scored, 20 fewer conceded, or more likely some combination of both.   Problem is that we're not on track to do that as we are roughly heading for 5 fewer goals scored and 3 fewer goals conceded, so that's actually -2 rather than +20.  Helpfully for us the league has only a couple of clearly better teams in it, the rest are much of a muchness so we still have time to sort things out.  Outside of Bournemouth, West Brom and probably Fulham, nobody else has really looked that good.

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Shock as 21 year old footballer gets much better with consistent game time in a consistent position while  previously, as a 20 year old, he showed inconsistent performances while being moved all over the pitch and in and out of the team, while being endlessly scapegoated by his own fans. 

Shock I tell ya. 

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15 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I agree that the midfield hasn't done enough but I do think that the man marking thing hasn't helped us at all.  Why he's done that here I have no idea but I'm sure there is a reason for it as I doubt he'd just do it for the sake of it.  Seems weird to me unless you believe your team is fitter or faster maybe so you think your players can follow the opposition all game long?  Or you believe your players are basically thicker than the opposition so you try to make it as simple as possible for them?  It's also fair to say that Howson is not a defensive midfielder but is being asked to do it anyway, which isn't really fair on him, and he was doing it last season even when we had Morsy available to play there.  

Funny thing is though that defensively we aren't that bad.  We're about where we've been for most of the last 5 years or so actually in terms of being one of the better sides in the division or at least not one of the worst.  We got a bit worse under Woodgate compared to Karanka, Monk, and Pulis, but even then we were around 10th/12th I believe in goals conceded - and that for us was pretty bad!  Last season was actually the same under Warnock, I think we were about 12th but we conceded fewer goals  This season we've conceded the 4th fewest goals in the league, and we're just over a goal a game, which is where we were last season.  Obviously under Pulis and Karanka we were better than that by a decent margin but that's still pretty good.  We've only faced the 6th fewest shots as well, so again that says it's solid enough.  Something I did noticed though, which may mean something or nothing, I have no idea.  We actually make the most tackles per game in the league apparently but we make a low number of interceptions - 5th fewest in the league.  That probably backs up what we've seen with our own eyes where teams are able to play through us quite easily but we don't concede tons of goals.

The problems are more at the other end than defensively.   We aren't as good under Warnock as we have been with previous managers, but we aren't terrible either.  I think before the season I said that we basically had to find 20 goals from somewhere - 20 more goals scored, 20 fewer conceded, or more likely some combination of both.   Problem is that we're not on track to do that as we are roughly heading for 5 fewer goals scored and 3 fewer goals conceded, so that's actually -2 rather than +20.  Helpfully for us the league has only a couple of clearly better teams in it, the rest are much of a muchness so we still have time to sort things out.  Outside of Bournemouth, West Brom and probably Fulham, nobody else has really looked that good.

Excellent post man.

Yeah I'd agree with quite a lot of what you said aswell tbf and it's excellent point as to why he has suddenly tried the man marking approach when he hasn't done in his long career other than Cardiff when peltier used to do that role for him.

Hernandez, Jones, Tavernier are certainly are good enough to get 10 assists a season but it's depending a lot on Sporar for me atm.

I didn't know that regarding one of the most tackling in terms but I can only presume is because we are chasing the game more often than not especially as we're the 2 or 3rd lowest in terms of possession overall in our opening games this season which obviously doesn't come as a surprise.

This team just looks to me as a team that looks confused and doesn't want to play under Warnock and the mixed messages doesn't help.

I for one (probably like you) can't wait for him to leave at the end of the season. Once we survived I didn't want him to stay as I didn't see the "long project' under his tenure. I only gave him 10 games this season to prove me wrong because of the overhaul we have had as a club in terms of players over the summer.

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10 minutes ago, diggerlad07 said:

Excellent post man.

Yeah I'd agree with quite a lot of what you said aswell tbf and it's excellent point as to why he has suddenly tried the man marking approach when he hasn't done in his long career other than Cardiff when peltier used to do that role for him.

Hernandez, Jones, Tavernier are certainly are good enough to get 10 assists a season but it's depending a lot on Sporar for me atm.

I didn't know that regarding one of the most tackling in terms but I can only presume is because we are chasing the game more often than not especially as we're the 2 or 3rd lowest in terms of possession overall in our opening games this season which obviously doesn't come as a surprise.

This team just looks to me as a team that looks confused and doesn't want to play under Warnock and the mixed messages doesn't help.

I for one (probably like you) can't wait for him to leave at the end of the season. Once we survived I didn't want him to stay as I didn't see the "long project' under his tenure. I only gave him 10 games this season to prove me wrong because of the overhaul we have had as a club in terms of players over the summer.

It could certainly be something to do with possession yeah.  It might not mean anything at all, it just stood out to me as something interesting.

Regarding the attacking players, I think there is talent there as well, but again interestingly, we've only scored 7 goals from open play this season, and that's from 12 games.  The best teams in the league are up at 18/19.  We complain about our set pieces, but we've scored two goals from them, and whilst Huddersfield have 8 for the season, nobody else has more than 5.  Even if we were really good at set pieces, we'd still be lacking goals because we don't get enough from open play, and I'm talking about our own build up here, not counter attacks.  We simply don't do enough.  And although this will probably astound some people we are not that inaccurate in terms of shooting, we have one of the highest percentages on target in the league.  There's only 3 or 4 teams with a better percentage than us.

Anyway, I better get me skates on!

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On 10/20/2021 at 6:48 PM, Changing Times said:

It could certainly be something to do with possession yeah.  It might not mean anything at all, it just stood out to me as something interesting.

Regarding the attacking players, I think there is talent there as well, but again interestingly, we've only scored 7 goals from open play this season, and that's from 12 games.  The best teams in the league are up at 18/19.  We complain about our set pieces, but we've scored two goals from them, and whilst Huddersfield have 8 for the season, nobody else has more than 5.  Even if we were really good at set pieces, we'd still be lacking goals because we don't get enough from open play, and I'm talking about our own build up here, not counter attacks.  We simply don't do enough.  And although this will probably astound some people we are not that inaccurate in terms of shooting, we have one of the highest percentages on target in the league.  There's only 3 or 4 teams with a better percentage than us.

Anyway, I better get me skates on!

The stats show we are 4th for shots on target and 8th for shots, which is admirable until looking at it another way, it suggests we are not creating enough opportunities from open play or converting shots on target. 
 

https://www.footcharts.co.uk/index.cfm?task=basics_shots&league=E1&venue=T&season=22/10/2021

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