Non-Boro Football

[TeaCider24 12,641]

Leeds United complaints spark 'EFL investigation' into Derby County over Financial Fair Play

It's because Leeds had joined Middlesbrough in complaining about Derby's finances and the stadium sale, but part of the animosity was obviously caused by Spygate and Derby beating them in the play-off semi-final.

Leeds didn't want to join Middlesbrough in legal action against the EFL when it looked like Derby had gotten away with it, and obviously Leeds got promoted at the end of that season and stopped caring.

Edited January 9, 2022 by TeaCider24

[smogsterking the Inspirati 2,490]

11 minutes ago, Duvel said:

The Leeds rivalry goes back to the 70s with Clough and Revie. 

Ah how could forget that. I love the Clough Revie story. Although I do think the spygate rekindled it especially with Derbys celebrations at the end of the play off semi.

[RealSlimSladeyy 769]

1 hour ago, Blanco said:

Just to remind everyone. This is the complete and utter crap those poor Derby fans were putting on social media at the time. The chicken has come home to roost. Absolutely nobody to blame here except Derby 

So, Blanco, just to be clear, you’re suggesting that because some Derby fans gave it large on social media about Mel Morris they now deserve no sympathy over the fact they stand to lose their football club? 
 

My impression is that most Derby fans fully accept that Morris was in the wrong and that Gibson was justified in seeking punishment for Derby’s wrongdoing. Where they take issue is him pursuing legal action over the fact we missed out on the playoffs to them in 2018/19. This complicates/stalls any chance of a takeover for them and therefore puts them at a heightened risk of liquidation. 
 

As should be obvious to any football fan, football clubs are at the heart of so many communities. Middlesbrough FC is certainly vital to not just Middlesbrough the town but to so much of Teesside. Imagine the heartbreak if we stood to lose our football club - perhaps you’re old enough to remember 86 so maybe you know this feeling first hand. They’re a club on their knees and yet Gibson is going for the kill over a flimsy case due to what appears to be a personal vendetta.

Sure, it was irritating that some Derby fans praised Morris’ actions and chanted stuff against Gibson when we played them. But I think this sentiment among boro fans that because of this Derby fans deserve to see their football club disappear and, what’s more, that we’re okay with our chairman potentially contributing to this, is disproportionate in the extreme.

 

Sympathy, empathy, understanding, it’s not difficult.

[Will 2,958]

14 minutes ago, RealSlimSladeyy said:

So, Blanco, just to be clear, you’re suggesting that because some Derby fans gave it large on social media about Mel Morris they now deserve no sympathy over the fact they stand to lose their football club? 
 

My impression is that most Derby fans fully accept that Morris was in the wrong and that Gibson was justified in seeking punishment for Derby’s wrongdoing. Where they take issue is him pursuing legal action over the fact we missed out on the playoffs to them in 2018/19. This complicates/stalls any chance of a takeover for them and therefore puts them at a heightened risk of liquidation. 
 

As should be obvious to any football fan, football clubs are at the heart of so many communities. Middlesbrough FC is certainly vital to not just Middlesbrough the town but to so much of Teesside. Imagine the heartbreak if we stood to lose our football club - perhaps you’re old enough to remember 86 so maybe you know this feeling first hand. They’re a club on their knees and yet Gibson is going for the kill over a flimsy case due to what appears to be a personal vendetta.

Sure, it was irritating that some Derby fans praised Morris’ actions and chanted stuff against Gibson when we played them. But I think this sentiment among boro fans that because of this Derby fans deserve to see their football club disappear and, what’s more, that we’re okay with our chairman potentially contributing to this, is disproportionate in the extreme.

 

Sympathy, empathy, understanding, it’s not difficult.

If it is a flimsy case I don't see why it would put off any serious potential investor. Those two things seem completely at odds to me. If the case is frivolous and we have no chance of winning, any serious investor would get legal advice to say so and would go ahead with the purchase. If the case isn't frivolous, then why should Gibson drop it?

Personally, it seems that this court case has become a convenient excuse for why what is an extremely unattractive is proving hard to sell. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Will

[Changing Times 12,347]

6 minutes ago, Will said:

If it is a flimsy case I don't see why it would put off any serious potential investor.

I'm pretty sure that you do see mate.  Flimsy or not, if there's a possibility of being on the hook for an extra £50m then you want to know where you stand.

[Will 2,958]

1 minute ago, Changing Times said:

I'm pretty sure that you do see mate.  Flimsy or not, if there's a possibility of being on the hook for an extra £50m then you want to know where you stand.

Well if it's flimsy then that possibility would be extremely low

[Naisby 736]

13 minutes ago, RealSlimSladeyy said:

So, Blanco, just to be clear, you’re suggesting that because some Derby fans gave it large on social media about Mel Morris they now deserve no sympathy over the fact they stand to lose their football club? 
 

My impression is that most Derby fans fully accept that Morris was in the wrong and that Gibson was justified in seeking punishment for Derby’s wrongdoing. Where they take issue is him pursuing legal action over the fact we missed out on the playoffs to them in 2018/19. This complicates/stalls any chance of a takeover for them and therefore puts them at a heightened risk of liquidation. 
 

As should be obvious to any football fan, football clubs are at the heart of so many communities. Middlesbrough FC is certainly vital to not just Middlesbrough the town but to so much of Teesside. Imagine the heartbreak if we stood to lose our football club - perhaps you’re old enough to remember 86 so maybe you know this feeling first hand. They’re a club on their knees and yet Gibson is going for the kill over a flimsy case due to what appears to be a personal vendetta.

Sure, it was irritating that some Derby fans praised Morris’ actions and chanted stuff against Gibson when we played them. But I think this sentiment among boro fans that because of this Derby fans deserve to see their football club disappear and, what’s more, that we’re okay with our chairman potentially contributing to this, is disproportionate in the extreme.

 

Sympathy, empathy, understanding, it’s not difficult.

Have you read some of the stuff posted on the Derby fan sites regarding Boro fans, Gibson etc.

im empathetic to the situation that the Derby fans find themselves in but their histrionics are a touch over blown. They want Gibson to stop his action and claim against them because they will be liquidated is rubbish, they have the funds committed to the administrators to keep the club afloat and have potential buyers already lined up to be announced.

They want Gibson to drop his claim to £45m in damages just so potential new owners don’t have to be put off buying them because of this debt. They don’t want the EFL to class this debt as a footballing one as a condition of EFL membership is all footballing debts must be paid fully and before all others. Boro know this first hand as we had the same restrictions put on us after 1986 and lived with it and paid them off, it didn’t stop the Consortium buying Boro then and the debts won’t stop a new buyer for Derby now.

[Changing Times 12,347]

12 minutes ago, Will said:

Well if it's flimsy then that possibility would be extremely low

Doesn't really matter if it could cost you a lot of money.

[Blanco 4,917]

38 minutes ago, RealSlimSladeyy said:

So, Blanco, just to be clear, you’re suggesting that because some Derby fans gave it large on social media about Mel Morris they now deserve no sympathy over the fact they stand to lose their football club? 
 

My impression is that most Derby fans fully accept that Morris was in the wrong and that Gibson was justified in seeking punishment for Derby’s wrongdoing. Where they take issue is him pursuing legal action over the fact we missed out on the playoffs to them in 2018/19. This complicates/stalls any chance of a takeover for them and therefore puts them at a heightened risk of liquidation. 
 

As should be obvious to any football fan, football clubs are at the heart of so many communities. Middlesbrough FC is certainly vital to not just Middlesbrough the town but to so much of Teesside. Imagine the heartbreak if we stood to lose our football club - perhaps you’re old enough to remember 86 so maybe you know this feeling first hand. They’re a club on their knees and yet Gibson is going for the kill over a flimsy case due to what appears to be a personal vendetta.

Sure, it was irritating that some Derby fans praised Morris’ actions and chanted stuff against Gibson when we played them. But I think this sentiment among boro fans that because of this Derby fans deserve to see their football club disappear and, what’s more, that we’re okay with our chairman potentially contributing to this, is disproportionate in the extreme.

 

Sympathy, empathy, understanding, it’s not difficult.

Just to make my position clear @RealSlimSladeyy. Steve Gibson is in no way responsible for the position Derby find themselves in right now. Derby are solely responsible for it. They are the author’s of their own downfall. 
Apparently Ollie Wright, the author of the Derby blog, who appeals to Boro and Wycombe (huge victims in this) fans to rally around in support of them was loving lording it over us all when Mel Morris was pulling strokes all over the place.

I have a lot of sympathy, empathy and understanding for the Wycombe fans who were royally stitched up by Derby and the EFL only last season in this.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

29 minutes ago, Blanco said:

Just to make my position clear @RealSlimSladeyy. Steve Gibson is in no way responsible for the position Derby find themselves in right now. Derby are solely responsible for it. They are the author’s of their own downfall. 
Apparently Ollie Wright, the author of the Derby blog, who appeals to Boro and Wycombe (huge victims in this) fans to rally around in support of them was loving lording it over us all when Mel Morris was pulling strokes all over the place.

I have a lot of sympathy, empathy and understanding for the Wycombe fans who were royally stitched up by Derby and the EFL only last season in this.

This is probably more of a personal thing but I have never understood the idea that we are huge victims in this.

The season we are referring back to is Pulis' full year in charge. I know not everyone will agree with this but I do not in any way, shape or form look back on that season as if we were hard done by and one of the reasons I've personally thought our claims were quite frivolous are that I don't think that team deserved to go up. We didn't deserve to finish in the playoffs. And to argue that this is another club's fault is to argue that there was nothing we could have done to prevent it. It's exactly what Pulis was going for when he said finishing 7th that year was better than 5th the year before and is something most people on here chastised him for. Most Boro fans I heard from at the time thought exactly the same, it was just a lame excuse for another failed season.

It's a 46 game season and another one in which we spent quite a bit of money and had plenty left of an expensively assembled squad to begin with. We didn't get the best out of the squad despite having perhaps the most expensive manager in our history in charge who failed to get enough out of them. His recruitment policies were atrocious, the summer he was in charge was the worst end to a summer transfer window we'd experienced for many years, it was absolutely diabolical.

So Derby cheated, no doubting that. But us being huge victims? Just another case of this club refusing to accept we handled our own situation badly. Derby had nothing to do with that.

[Redcar Rioja 5,976]

9 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

This is probably more of a personal thing but I have never understood the idea that we are huge victims in this.

The season we are referring back to is Pulis' full year in charge. I know not everyone will agree with this but I do not in any way, shape or form look back on that season as if we were hard done by and one of the reasons I've personally thought our claims were quite frivolous are that I don't think that team deserved to go up. We didn't deserve to finish in the playoffs. And to argue that this is another club's fault is to argue that there was nothing we could have done to prevent it. It's exactly what Pulis was going for when he said finishing 7th that year was better than 5th the year before and is something most people on here chastised him for. Most Boro fans I heard from at the time thought exactly the same, it was just a lame excuse for another failed season.

It's a 46 game season and another one in which we spent quite a bit of money and had plenty left of an expensively assembled squad to begin with. We didn't get the best out of the squad despite having perhaps the most expensive manager in our history in charge who failed to get enough out of them. His recruitment policies were atrocious, the summer he was in charge was the worst end to a summer transfer window we'd experienced for many years, it was absolutely diabolical.

So Derby cheated, no doubting that. But us being huge victims? Just another case of this club refusing to accept we handled our own situation badly. Derby had nothing to do with that.

As bad as we were under Pulis and as dull and painful as it was to endure had Derby not cheated we like as not would have finished above them and in the Play Offs. We should have made the top six anyway but we didn't and one club above us blatantly cheated to win that coveted place.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

2 minutes ago, Redcar Rioja said:

As bad as we were under Pulis and as dull and painful as it was to endure had Derby not cheated we like as not would have finished above them and in the Play Offs. We should have made the top six anyway but we didn't and one club above us blatantly cheated to win that coveted place.

There's not even a conclusive way to prove this to be honest. There's so much that would change had Derby actually limited their spending that season that quite a few teams could make a case they could have.

But even if you just take the view that Derby wouldn't have finished there and we would have, or that Derby had a points deduction applied to that season's tally, how does the amount we are after even come close to matching the only thing that you can legitimately prove in those circumstances; we finish in the playoffs and play 2 more games. We might go further but there's no saying either way really.

[Naisby 736]

26 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

There's not even a conclusive way to prove this to be honest. There's so much that would change had Derby actually limited their spending that season that quite a few teams could make a case they could have.

But even if you just take the view that Derby wouldn't have finished there and we would have, or that Derby had a points deduction applied to that season's tally, how does the amount we are after even come close to matching the only thing that you can legitimately prove in those circumstances; we finish in the playoffs and play 2 more games. We might go further but there's no saying either way really.

The rules were and are clear, Derby and other clubs broke them in order to gain an advantage.

In the case of Derby we had the same target promotion to the premier league, similar size squads with similar levels of quality going after the same quality additions to their squads. Boro under Gibson followed the rules and we came within a whisker of the playoffs, Derby broke the rules and got a place in the play offs. 

Everything else is hypothetical, reports were that various targets both clubs wanted ended up going to Derby because they could offer more and supposedly stay within FFP, it’s been later proved they couldn’t and knew they couldn’t. Say Boro had made the playoffs if Derby hadn’t broken the rules and been able to improve their squad with promotion we could have had a different future. 

It’s now to me a matter of principle rather than targeting a particular club or clubs as it’s been shown dodgy owners can slip away and it’s the fans who are left to suffer, but if the EFL is not pushed to uphold its rules and sufficiently compensate clubs directly for this then what’s to stop it happening at every club. Demanding £40+m from a club in administration and down on its look looks mean and uncharitable, but tomorrow that club could be bought and what benefits would it gain and Boro loose if they don’t have to pay £40m.

[Redcar Rioja 5,976]

4 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

There's not even a conclusive way to prove this to be honest. There's so much that would change had Derby actually limited their spending that season that quite a few teams could make a case they could have.

But even if you just take the view that Derby wouldn't have finished there and we would have, or that Derby had a points deduction applied to that season's tally, how does the amount we are after even come close to matching the only thing that you can legitimately prove in those circumstances; we finish in the playoffs and play 2 more games. We might go further but there's no saying either way really.

If it goes to Court SG may be awarded fifty quid, five million, fifty million, a hundred million quid or nothing at all. He may even end up having to pay costs. That other teams didn't make a fuss about it was there choice, my guess is that they didn't know, understand or appreciate it fully (the EFL certainly didn't) which probably says a lot about the state of the game in general. There will also of course have been a few like Wednesday and Reading looking on anxiously.

If someone hits your car in a road accident that wasn't your fault should you just claim to have your car repaired and leave it at that or should you also claim for whiplash, broken limbs, pain, loss of earnings and long term psychological effects on you and your passengers? If the Driver of the offending Car is a fully insured multi billionaire or a skint uninsured student should that affect your pain, inconvenience, cost or thinking? 

If someone is considering buying Derby they need to factor in the potential fifty odd million for Boro and Wycombe as well as the value of the Club, it's not difficult. It's like buying a fixer upper House, you budget what you can afford and factor in worse case scenario if the roof has woodworm and the foundations are sinking. If all it needs is a lick of paint then you are quids in but if you can't afford the worse case scenario then you really shouldn't be buying it.

Someone may buy DCFC and find that SG and Wycombe's claims get thrown out of court in which case they are up on the deal. Take Mike Ashley as one example of a supposed interested party, £50M based on what he has just sold NUFC for isn't a deal breaker or shouldn't be. To me it's posturing to try and buy/sell Derby as cheaply as possible, problem is that SG and Wycombe have nothing to lose so it's a case of who blinks first if at all. A fully restored DCFC will potentially be worth a lot more than the supposed money currently on offer.

Unfortunately in all this Derby may indeed end up being condemned but if so it won't be as a result of Wycombe and SG.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

53 minutes ago, Naisby said:

The rules were and are clear, Derby and other clubs broke them in order to gain an advantage.

In the case of Derby we had the same target promotion to the premier league, similar size squads with similar levels of quality going after the same quality additions to their squads. Boro under Gibson followed the rules and we came within a whisker of the playoffs, Derby broke the rules and got a place in the play offs. 

Everything else is hypothetical, reports were that various targets both clubs wanted ended up going to Derby because they could offer more and supposedly stay within FFP, it’s been later proved they couldn’t and knew they couldn’t. Say Boro had made the playoffs if Derby hadn’t broken the rules and been able to improve their squad with promotion we could have had a different future. 

It’s now to me a matter of principle rather than targeting a particular club or clubs as it’s been shown dodgy owners can slip away and it’s the fans who are left to suffer, but if the EFL is not pushed to uphold its rules and sufficiently compensate clubs directly for this then what’s to stop it happening at every club. Demanding £40+m from a club in administration and down on its look looks mean and uncharitable, but tomorrow that club could be bought and what benefits would it gain and Boro loose if they don’t have to pay £40m.

I know Derby broke the rules and I've never fought the case that they haven't. I'm talking about our direct case against them and what that means for our club's view of that season. It declares that Derby breaking the rules caused us £40m of damages and paints that season as Derby causing us losses.

I don't need to see anything to do with Derby to tell you we should have done better than we did that season. This huge sum of money to me says that Gibson believes they are pretty much the sole cause for our failure but there is so much more we could have done to avoid finishing below them. This is just another thing that Gibson has done to try and justify Pulis' reign at the club.

I appreciate Gibson's role in enforcing these rules against Derby. It just leaves a really sour taste in my mouth when I think about the season in question, that Gibson would in any way prefer to look outward rather than inward to determine our performance. Being a Boro fan that year was so bloody painful and I really struggle personally with the idea it was anything but our own club's fault.