Why talk of promotion/play offs is premature and divisive

[Humpty 3,261]

The bigger picture, Changing Times, is the long term health and stability of the club.

 

Mowbray took control of a toxic club. A club that had costs spiralling out of control, players that were not fit for purpose and a non-exsistant infrastructure bar training facilities. His immediate mandate, was to save the club from relegation in which he succeeded., secondly he was charged with rebuilding the club with a view to achieving promotion. That still is the aim, however the introduction of FFP rules lengthened that mandate as it meant we could no longer throw money at the problem in order to achieve a short term fix, which in terms of our financial position would've been like putting a plaster on a broken leg.

 

Not taking the obstacles he had to overcome behind the scenes into account, he had to manage the expectations of a set of fans which are, to put it mildy, impatient.

 

I don't think he's done a brilliant job, he certainly didn't cover himself in glory second half of last season, but i think he's had a hell of a lot to contend with. Issues that the average fan don't/won't want to take into consideration.

 

We have a small squad, but a squad full of the type of players the manager has been yearning for. Someone above said we don't have the quality to reach the play offs, that's rubbish. Our first 11 is as good as anyone's in this league. What we lack is strength in depth and options to change things around when the game is not going our way. There are very few teams in this league that have that. QPR and Wigan are two of them. Outside of that pair there are another 10 teams all capable of finishing in the top 6 dependant onb a bit of luck. We are one of them.

[Guest Changing Times]

The bigger picture, Changing Times, is the long term health and stability of the club.

 

Mowbray took control of a toxic club. A club that had costs spiralling out of control, players that were not fit for purpose and a non-exsistant infrastructure bar training facilities. His immediate mandate, was to save the club from relegation in which he succeeded., secondly he was charged with rebuilding the club with a view to achieving promotion. That still is the aim, however the introduction of FFP rules lengthened that mandate as it meant we could no longer throw money at the problem in order to achieve a short term fix, which in terms of our financial position would've been like putting a plaster on a broken leg.

 

Not taking the obstacles he had to overcome behind the scenes into account, he had to manage the expectations of a set of fans which are, to put it mildy, impatient.

 

I don't think he's done a brilliant job, he certainly didn't cover himself in glory second half of last season, but i think he's had a hell of a lot to contend with. Issues that the average fan don't/won't want to take into consideration.

 

We have a small squad, but a squad full of the type of players the manager has been yearning for. Someone above said we don't have the quality to reach the play offs, that's rubbish. Our first 11 is as good as anyone's in this league. What we lack is strength in depth and options to change things around when the game is not going our way. There are very few teams in this league that have that. QPR and Wigan are two of them. Outside of that pair there are another 10 teams all capable of finishing in the top 6 dependant onb a bit of luck. We are one of them.

 

Cheers for the reply, Humpty. I've read it all but I've highlighed the bits I'll be specifically referring to.

 

If the bigger picture that Stubbzy69 was referring to is simply the long term health and stability of the club then I'd suggest this is something that is fairly well understood by most fans I speak to and probably every fan I've seen posting on this forum over the months I've been reading it. I'm trying to find out what the bigger picture is that most people apparently DON'T understand.

 

I think the idea that costs were spiralling out of control when Mowbray took over is slightly misleading. We'd racked up £100m in debt, which was clearly unsustainable whether we were in the Premier League or not. Costs had already long since spiralled out of control but that wasn't a problem for Mowbray to solve. That issue is entirely to do with those running the club and ultimately they are the ones that put this right, Mowbray simply works within the constraints they have to set in order to do this.

 

The squad not being fit for purpose is something that I find hard to agree with. We finished his first two thirds season very strongly and went on to finish 7th the season after. Clearly, the squad could cope at this level to a reasonable extent. Last season we fell away badly to 16th with a squad full of players that Mowbray had signed himself, whether on permanent or loan contracts.

 

The FFP rules are often used as justification for lower expectations but every club has to abide by them, they aren't unique to us. Very few clubs are throwing money at their problems at this level anyway and I don't know any fans that expect us to. Furthermore, I completely disagree that Boro fans are impatient or that Mowbray has had to manage these expectations. We were challenging and fell away the season before last and then last season we were challenging and completely caved in. I'd be surprised if any set of fans wouldn't be disappointed with the outcome of both seasons. Quite frankly what happened last season was shambolic and deserving of a hell of a lot more vocal criticism than it got.

 

The idea that the 'average' fan (whatever that is) doesn't take some of the things you've mentioned into consideration is a ridiculous comment to make and smacks of a a kind of 'superfan' attitude, no disrespect intended. Most fans fully understand what is going on at the club, they don't accept that it's a catch all excuse for any kind of performance though. The side was good enough to contend for the first half of each of the last two seasons and then fell away badly in both. I don't think any of the factors you've mentioned either explain the two slumps or in any way excuse them. They had no bearing on them at all with respect.

 

If as you say Mowbray has now got the squad he wants then it is entirely fair that people's expectations will increase. If he can take a squad to 7th place that according to you wasn't fit for purpose and according to a lot of people was full of overpaid rubbish then surely anything less than that is a failure on his part? My own view is that top 2 is highly unlikely but top 6 is possible, however I'm not convinced at the moment that he or the squad has what it takes to get there. So going back to the topic of this thread, talk of the promotion/play-offs cannot be premature or divisive. This is our aim and this is what Mowbray is supposedly building towards. It's his squad, there are no more excuses in that regard. If he can get close with a squad he doesn't want then how can it not be realistic to expect him to get there with one that he does?

[Humpty 3,261]

Humpty Wrote:

The bigger picture, Changing Times, is the long term health and stability of the club.

 

Mowbray took control of a toxic club. A club that had costs spiralling out of control, players that were not fit for purpose and a non-exsistant infrastructure bar training facilities. His immediate mandate, was to save the club from relegation in which he succeeded., secondly he was charged with rebuilding the club with a view to achieving promotion. That still is the aim, however the introduction of FFP rules lengthened that mandate as it meant we could no longer throw money at the problem in order to achieve a short term fix, which in terms of our financial position would've been like putting a plaster on a broken leg.

 

Not taking the obstacles he had to overcome behind the scenes into account, he had to manage the expectations of a set of fans which are, to put it mildy, impatient.

 

I don't think he's done a brilliant job, he certainly didn't cover himself in glory second half of last season, but i think he's had a hell of a lot to contend with. Issues that the average fan don't/won't want to take into consideration.

 

We have a small squad, but a squad full of the type of players the manager has been yearning for. Someone above said we don't have the quality to reach the play offs, that's rubbish. Our first 11 is as good as anyone's in this league. What we lack is strength in depth and options to change things around when the game is not going our way. There are very few teams in this league that have that. QPR and Wigan are two of them. Outside of that pair there are another 10 teams all capable of finishing in the top 6 dependant onb a bit of luck. We are one of them.

 

Cheers for the reply, Humpty. I've read it all but I've highlighed the bits I'll be specifically referring to.

 

My pleasure. I’ll address each paragraph in turn.

 

If the bigger picture that Stubbzy69 was referring to is simply the long term health and stability of the club then I'd suggest this is something that is fairly well understood by most fans I speak to and probably every fan I've seen posting on this forum over the months I've been reading it. I'm trying to find out what the bigger picture is that most people apparently DON'T understand.

 

The idea of long term health and a stable club maybe understood but the implications seemed to have been either ignored or disregarded.

 

I think the idea that costs were spiralling out of control when Mowbray took over is slightly misleading. We'd racked up £100m in debt, which was clearly unsustainable whether we were in the Premier League or not. Costs had already long since spiralled out of control but that wasn't a problem for Mowbray to solve. That issue is entirely to do with those running the club and ultimately they are the ones that put this right, Mowbray simply works within the constraints they have to set in order to do this.

 

It’s not misleading, it’s a fact. The very fact you think Mowbray plays no part in correcting the financial issues indicates to me that, you yourself, do not fully understand the implications of how the financial problems have affected the running of the club.

 

This statement in particular I find particularly is pertinent:

 

“That issue is entirely to do with those running the club and ultimately they are the ones that put this right, Mowbray simply works within the constraints they have to set in order to do this.”

 

Neither Gibson nor Mowbray are solely responsible for the financial decisions. It’s a joint effort. They discuss what’s needed and work within the parameters that are necessary to ensure the best interests of the club in the long term.

 

The squad not being fit for purpose is something that I find hard to agree with. We finished his first two thirds season very strongly and went on to finish 7th the season after. Clearly, the squad could cope at this level to a reasonable extent. Last season we fell away badly to 16th with a squad full of players that Mowbray had signed himself, whether on permanent or loan contracts.

 

The FFP rules are often used as justification for lower expectations but every club has to abide by them, they aren't unique to us. Very few clubs are throwing money at their problems at this level anyway and I don't know any fans that expect us to. Furthermore, I completely disagree that Boro fans are impatient or that Mowbray has had to manage these expectations. We were challenging and fell away the season before last and then last season we were challenging and completely caved in. I'd be surprised if any set of fans wouldn't be disappointed with the outcome of both seasons. Quite frankly what happened last season was shambolic and deserving of a hell of a lot more vocal criticism than it got.

 

The fact we fell away should be indication enough that the players weren’t good enough to maintain a challenge over the course of a season? surely? Do you think Mowbray had free reign to bring in the type of players he really wanted? Do you think he wanted to build a team around the likes of Zemmama, Ledesma or Parnaby? It’s called fire fighting and is representative or what he’s had to deal with whilst reducing the wage bill.

 

I think you mistake patience with apathy.

 

The idea that the 'average' fan (whatever that is) doesn't take some of the things you've mentioned into consideration is a ridiculous comment to make and smacks of a a kind of 'superfan' attitude, no disrespect intended. Most fans fully understand what is going on at the club, they don't accept that it's a catch all excuse for any kind of performance though. The side was good enough to contend for the first half of each of the last two seasons and then fell away badly in both. I don't think any of the factors you've mentioned either explain the two slumps or in any way excuse them. They had no bearing on them at all with respect.

 

If as you say Mowbray has now got the squad he wants then it is entirely fair that people's expectations will increase. If he can take a squad to 7th place that according to you wasn't fit for purpose and according to a lot of people was full of overpaid rubbish then surely anything less than that is a failure on his part? My own view is that top 2 is highly unlikely but top 6 is possible, however I'm not convinced at the moment that he or the squad has what it takes to get there. So going back to the topic of this thread, talk of the promotion/play-offs cannot be premature or divisive. This is our aim and this is what Mowbray is supposedly building towards. It's his squad, there are no more excuses in that regard. If he can get close with a squad he doesn't want then how can it not be realistic to expect him to get there with one that he does?

 

I didn’t say he was happy with the squad he has, I said he has the first 11 he has been looking to assemble. The squad is small and lacks depth, but only now has he has been allowed to bring in players of sufficient quality to compete. He’s building with quality rather than piecing together make shift buy and frees.

 

Our aim has ALWAYS been promotion. I would expect nothing less from Gibson. Maybe we haven’t managed expectations as well as we could, but would we be happy if we stated consolidation of our finances and a mid-table spot was our aim? I don’t think so we’d be slated for lacking ambition, such is the nature of our fan base.

 

I’m not saying Mowbray has done a great job nor do I think he’s done a bad job. What I do think, is that he’s been tasked with an incredibly hard job and that he’s kept his head above water…just. I think we can all see what is starting to come together, even those that wanted him sacked after the first game.

 

Why is that? What’s changed?

[Boro Scot 75]

My expectations...........just to improve yr on yr. last yr we failed but if we succeed yr on yr we eventually get where we want to be

 

Other than 2011-2012 we've been finishing lower down the league. year on year.....

 

Mowbray has been in charge for 2 1/2 seasons now, so it depends how you look at it. We finished 12th- 7th- 16th. So I could just as easily say besides last year we've been finishing higher in the league year on year...

ok, so we finished 7th the season before last and then we finished 16th last season....good progress. Coupled with only 3 wins in the latter half of the season.....you can put whatever spin you want on it but it's not progress!

[BoroDownSouth 60]

Too much quoting. Brain fried.

[boroinbishop 65]

Too much quoting. Brain fried.

 

My thoughts exactly lol

[Boro Scot 75]

whose Brian Freid anyway??

[Guest Changing Times]

In order to save people's brains from being fried (especially Brian's) I'll refrain from quoting any more :) Once again thanks for the interesting reply Humpty, it's appreciated.

 

I think the long term health of the club is understood by most but that's not to say that everyone will accept it as an excuse for whatever performances are churned out. The bottom line is that other clubs have to deal with the same issues and some of them have been more successful than ourselves in doing so. A number of clubs have achieved promotion on small budgets for example. It annoys me when it's portrayed as mission impossible - not by you I know.

 

It is misleading in that the financial situation had already spiralled out of control. If you think Mowbray inherited a situation where it was just going out of control then you are mistaken. It had long since gone past that point. I think it's clear that more stupid decisions were taken after this point and before Mowbray got the job - I'm sure we all know what we're talking about here.

 

Gibson is solely responsible for financial decisions. You may think otherwise but this is an absolute fact. Mowbray may well have an input and be able to give his opinion on things - I'd like to sign player X, I'd like player Y to get a new contract, I don't want to sell player Z and so on, but the only decision maker is Gibson. It cannot be any other way I'm afraid. If we don't have the funds available then we don't sign player X, player Y doesn't get his contract and if needs must then player Z is sold. I have no doubt that wherever possible Gibson will look to back up whatever it is that Mowbray wants as he appears to have done this summer but that isn't Gibson making joint decisions with him at all.

 

I have my own thoughts on why we fell away but ultimately I don't have enough information to really form a reliable opinion. What I would say is that I don't believe that a side can get up to 2nd over four months and then barely win a game for the next four simply because the squad isn't up to it. The less said about the players you mention the better but I would say that some of the football decisions made have been poor and they are solely down to him. That includes some of the signings and for example giving a player like Arca a new deal only to pretty much never play the bloke. A decent amount of money has been wasted by Mowbray at a time when we really didn't have any to waste.

 

For the most part my opinion on Mowbray is pretty much along the same lines as what you've said above as it happens. My issue isn't with him as much as it is with people making excuses for him. This thread is about not wanting to talk about promotion and the play-offs for fear of it being divisive! That is crazy to me. As you yourself say this is our aim, we may well not achieve it but not talking about it isn't going to alter the fact that this is exactly what we're trying to do.

 

Anyway I have more than bored everyone enough now so I will leave it there. Thanks for the discussion and I looked forward to more in the future mate.

[LeeMiller 5]

Goods points CT, but if in Feb we are 6-10 points off sixth there will be a massive clamour for Mowbrays head. I'm no apologist, I'm a Boro fan first and foremost and I'm desperate for us to go up. But I can't see how we are going to achieve it looking at our squad. We are not going to jump from 16th and falling apart at the seams to 2nd in the space of three months.

 

This season has to be an improvement on the end of last season, it has to show that going to the Riverside can be enjoyable again and that a really good season, August through to May is possible.

[Uwe 3,545]

"We are not going to jump from 16th and falling apart at the seams to 2nd in the space of three months"

 

However it was possible to drop from 2nd to 16th?

 

Could we be a top 2 team? Yes.... It would be very very unlikely (and we'd need teams to collapse rather than us excel) due to the strength of clubs we have in the championship. However I think top 10 by Xmas and top 6 by the end of the season are reasonable goals for the squad we have now along with perceived money we have to fill shortfalls we may have discovered/forced upon us by the January window.

Improvement it the terms of league position isn't enough but as long as Boro and Tony are heading in the right direction in terms if squad/financial/stability (and I think they are) I won't be shouting for anybody's head just yet. Lets face it I'm 36yrs old now so probably have another 40yrs of supporting Boro and I'm not going anywhere :)

[p_mards 1,365]

This division isn't about the best players. Year after year we see it where teams with a good honest squad and a tremendous team spirit come from nowhere and surprise everyone by matching and even bettering teams with superior individual players. So we've got nothing to fear against any team in this division if we get our own squad and team spirit right and shouldn't feel inferior to teams with higher profile individual players.

[Guest Kinky_Maccarone]

CT - You mention that Gibson has the last decision on all signings etc and you're probably right but I don't think that Mowbray will ever give him that decision to make.

 

I am confident that Mowbray knows exactly where the club are financially and that they would have sat down together and formed plans, target players, players to sell. Including players that can be bought for the right transfer fees and the right wages.

 

I don't see this as a normal chairman/manager relationship. I genuinely feel they help each other out with one another's job when it comes to selecting players and then checking the finances. And I respect the way they stuck to their guns over the McCormack deal, even though we clearly had more money available - i.e Vossen.

[Somerset Boro 98]

"We are not going to jump from 16th and falling apart at the seams to 2nd in the space of three months"

 

However it was possible to drop from 2nd to 16th?

Could we be a top 2 team? Yes.... It would be very very unlikely (and we'd need teams to collapse rather than us excel) due to the strength of clubs we have in the championship. However I think top 10 by Xmas and top 6 by the end of the season are reasonable goals for the squad we have now along with perceived money we have to fill shortfalls we may have discovered/forced upon us by the January window.

Improvement it the terms of league position isn't enough but as long as Boro and Tony are heading in the right direction in terms if squad/financial/stability (and I think they are) I won't be shouting for anybody's head just yet. Lets face it I'm 36yrs old now so probably have another 40yrs of supporting Boro and I'm not going anywhere :)

 

he means going from 16th and falling apart at the end of last season to being a top 2 side at the start of this season Uwe :)

---

"We are not going to jump from 16th and falling apart at the seams to 2nd in the space of three months"

 

However it was possible to drop from 2nd to 16th?

Could we be a top 2 team? Yes.... It would be very very unlikely (and we'd need teams to collapse rather than us excel) due to the strength of clubs we have in the championship. However I think top 10 by Xmas and top 6 by the end of the season are reasonable goals for the squad we have now along with perceived money we have to fill shortfalls we may have discovered/forced upon us by the January window.

Improvement it the terms of league position isn't enough but as long as Boro and Tony are heading in the right direction in terms if squad/financial/stability (and I think they are) I won't be shouting for anybody's head just yet. Lets face it I'm 36yrs old now so probably have another 40yrs of supporting Boro and I'm not going anywhere :)

 

he means going from 16th and falling apart at the end of last season to being a top 2 side at the start of this season Uwe :)

 

anyway i think it depends what 'group' yopu put boro in, lets be honest its not 24 teams all having a chance is it? the way i see it is like this

 

auto promotion

QPR

reading

wigan

watford

 

playoffs

any two of the above

brighton

leicester

leeds

forest

bolton

 

midtable

ipswich

derby

birmingham

blackburn

blackpool

burnley

charlton

huddersfield

 

relegation

sheff wed

yeovil

doncaster

bournemouth

millwall

barnsley

 

and then wherever you want to stick us to, i don't think we are as strong as ledds or have the financial clout forest and leicester haveif they need it in january. add to that 2 of the 4 auto challengers and i think midtable this season with maybe an outside chance.