'Other Boro stuff'

[Changing Times 12,339]

Here's some good ones I read on here about Fry:

Fry doesn't win headers, he's not good in the air.  In actual fact he's won more headers per game than any Boro player, including Ayala. 

Fry gives the ball away a lot.  Actually he's ranked 15th in our squad for inaccurate long passes.  Ayala, Shotton, Howson, Moukoudi and McNair are all ahead of him and thus give the ball away more in these circumstances.  He's 17th for inaccurate short passes, only Ayala and Moukoudi are below him out of the defenders I believe.  He's ranked 19th for unsuccessful touches and also for being dispossessed.  Ayala and Howson are slightly better than him in that regard but Fry takes the ball out more than Ayala and Howson is a midfielder who should be more comfortable in possession.  The difference is something like 0.1 - 0.5 incidents per 90 mins so it's not like there's a significant difference either.

He makes more clearances than anyone other than Ayala and given that Ayala is the spare man in the middle that's exactly what I'd expect.  Only Ayala gets dribbled past fewer times per game of the regulars - Moukoudi hasn't been dribbled past so far though.  Only Shotton and Friend make more blocks than him per game.  He also rarely gives away freekicks, something I'd say is at least kinda useful.

He doesn't intercept as many passes as I think he should and I believe this is an area of weakness for him and probably where a lot of the stuff about him being crap comes from.  I believe this is something that will develop with age however and is one of the reasons I still see the potential in him.  He's 22 years old.  Ayala is 29, Shotton 31, Friend 32, Howson 31.  He's far less experienced than the rest of the defenders.  Ayala was 24 when he first signed for us wasn't he?  Even Gibson made his debut at an older age than Fry I believe.  He's already played a few positions for us and he's playing in a team that isn't exactly playing well at the moment.  For some reason though he seems to get more grief than most, maybe it's because he sometimes looks awkward on the ball over on that left hand side?  Maybe we should look to play out to our right more often instead of asking him to do it?

Statistically, he's probably our best defender overall, it would be between him and Ayala anyway.  People might not like that but that's how it is.  Perhaps look at the good things he does game after game instead of looking out for bad things whilst also ignoring other defenders making similar or worse mistakes?  Moukoudi made a major mistake in the first half against Wigan when the ball got played down their left along the touchline and he tried to see it out or shield it only for their player to get in there first and knock it past him.  If Fry had done that he would have been getting pelters but nobody even mentioned it in the match thread from what I could see.  We were lucky they couldn't craft a chance from it because it was no better than what happened to Fry against Derby except that they scored from a fluked cross after it in that instance.  Not only that but after two own goals, nearly getting himself sent off and other basic mistakes in just two games, people are already on about signing Moukoudi!

There's a reason that Fry is being played where he is and Ayala, Moukoudi, Howson, McNair and the rest aren't being asked to play there.  It's not because Fry is terrible, it's because Woodgate believes he can better deal with playing there than the others.  I think it would be interesting to see Ayala playing as the left sided defender in a three and having to cover Coulson or Johnson.  I reckon he'd get shredded more often than not if he had to do the same things Fry is having to do there.  I think maybe Moukoudi could do it though because of his athleticism.  Could be worth a shot between now and the end of the season.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

I certainly don't think I've given Fry any more criticism than he's earned from what I've watched of him this year. I don't think he's had a good season. Neither does Fry himself going by his own comments. Do I think there's a better man in the squad to play where he is? Probably not, that comes down to the problem the squad has more than himself and his strengths. But that doesn't stop him standing out like a bit of a sore thumb at times as not being comfortable with playing there, just as it wouldn't for anyone else playing there.

10 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

People might not like that but that's how it is.

I don't think people don't like that, I think people are forming their own opinions based on their own information. Sometimes I do think it goes a bit too far and some of the stuff said about Fry on here is dog ***. But he's not had a good season just because you can define him as statistically the best defender.

12 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

it's because Woodgate believes he can better deal with playing there than the others

At least you and Woodgate can agree on something, though, eh?

[Changing Times 12,339]

22 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I certainly don't think I've given Fry any more criticism than he's earned from what I've watched of him this year. I don't think he's had a good season. Neither does Fry himself going by his own comments. Do I think there's a better man in the squad to play where he is? Probably not, that comes down to the problem the squad has more than himself and his strengths. But that doesn't stop him standing out like a bit of a sore thumb at times as not being comfortable with playing there, just as it wouldn't for anyone else playing there.

I don't think people don't like that, I think people are forming their own opinions based on their own information. Sometimes I do think it goes a bit too far and some of the stuff said about Fry on here is dog ***. But he's not had a good season just because you can define him as statistically the best defender.

At least you and Woodgate can agree on something, though, eh?

The problem I have mate is when other players make mistakes but don't get called out on it.  You'd think Howson was one of the world's great defenders if you read this place sometimes but he makes mistakes every game and his basic defending isn't that good (for a central defender, which he isn't of course).  It's just that either nobody cares or nobody sees it.  I actually think it's the former, I just think people care less when some players make mistakes than others.  

I kinda think people don't like it actually.  I think a narrative has formed that Fry isn't very good and that's now how it is.  I don't think he's been amazing this season, I'm certain that he hasn't been, but then neither has anyone else.  The fact that it's possible to define him as statistically our best defender this season and even you, one of the most reasonable people on here (certainly more than I am), isn't that interested in it says quite a lot.  Because, to me, what you're saying is that the good things he is doing matter less than mistakes he makes and more importantly that the good things other people are doing somehow matter more.  I don't think that's fair personally.  If people say Fry is crap in the air and actually he wins more than every other Boro player then that is an important point to make and it shouldn't be ignored.  It's something that simply isn't true but gets presented as though it's fact, presumably on the basis of the one header he loses in a game or whatever.

I'm not sure I do agree with Woodgate on it as it goes.  Like I said, I think Moukoudi could be worth a try over on that side.  I'd say he's more athletic than Fry and he might be able to cope with covering whoever plays on our left side more easily.  It could be worth looking at anyway?

[Smoggydownsouth 1,621]

1 hour ago, Changing Times said:

 

Coulson was virtually touch tight to his man.  If a cross field pass comes across and gets there in that situation then it's just a good pass.  Fry and Moukoudi are both on Moore when the initial pass comes across if you look at it.  Fry then moves toward the near post and leaves Moukoudi on Moore.  Their right back has lots of space and Wing is nowhere near him and not close enough to the lad who receives the pass to let Coulson cover the overlap, hence they get the cross in.  I'd like Fry maybe a yard deeper at most but any more than that and he's well inside the six yard box and out of position given where the ball is played in from and where Moukoudi and Moore are.  Moukoudi loses his man and is focused only on the ball.  If he stays with his man he can clear it from that position rather than launching himself at the ball.  Fry gets *** for absolutely everything on here and most of it is ill informed nonsense.  If people are seriously blaming him for that goal ahead of Wing and Moukoudi then they need their heads examining.

Let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

[Foogle 2,104]

Maybe it's because people have/had a higher opinion of Fry than most of our players? His level has dropped this season but I don't think he's been our worst defender... playing on the left sided is probably good for his development to be honest, it might do him well for the rest of his career being challenged in a tough situation and being forced to develop both feet.

44 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Moukoudi made a major mistake in the first half against Wigan when the ball got played down their left along the touchline and he tried to see it out or shield it only for their player to get in there first and knock it past him.  If Fry had done that he would have been getting pelters but nobody even mentioned it in the match thread from what I could see.  We were lucky they couldn't craft a chance from it because it was no better than what happened to Fry against Derby except that they scored from a fluked cross after it in that instance.  Not only that but after two own goals, nearly getting himself sent off and other basic mistakes in just two games, people are already on about signing Moukoudi!

Moukoudi looked very good in that Wigan game to be fair to him, I think everyone in the stadium thought that ball was going straight out of play before the wind took it. Similar with his own goal, it looked like an awful game to try and defend in for both teams. A game that probably would've ended 0-0 or 1-0 ended up being a 2-2 because of the conditions.

 

[Changing Times 12,339]

I think the conditions were difficult obviously and had a hand in a few things.  It's still a mistake though and if Fry had done it then you can guarantee it would be commented on.  So to me there are double standards at work.  I think Moukoudi had a decent game but he makes mental errors.  However, like Fry, I reckon that's an age related thing and he'll improve over time.  Coupled with his athletic qualities he could become a very good defender in my opinion.  I'd put his top end potential higher than Fry's based on what little we've seen so far 👍

[Changing Times 12,339]

10 minutes ago, Smoggydownsouth said:

Let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

Not unless you provide some more ITK juicy gossip right now otherwise I am going to keep hounding you about this for the rest of your life.

[TLF10 4,496]

It seems the talk on here of Ben Gibson refusing to train might have been wide off the mark.

Gazette indicating Burnley asked us if he can train with us to take stting out of his fall out with Dyche. No suggestion from Burnley he has refused to train.

[Foogle 2,104]

5 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I think the conditions were difficult obviously and had a hand in a few things.  It's still a mistake though and if Fry had done it then you can guarantee it would be commented on.  So to me there are double standards at work.  I think Moukoudi had a decent game but he makes mental errors.  However, like Fry, I reckon that's an age related thing and he'll improve over time.  Coupled with his athletic qualities he could become a very good defender in my opinion.  I'd put his top end potential higher than Fry's based on what little we've seen so far 👍

I suppose it is a bit of human nature, people get confirmation bias, they'll zone in on every tiny mistake that a player they think is bad commits and gloss over those made by 'good' players. We're all guilty of it.

[Changing Times 12,339]

7 minutes ago, TLF10 said:

It seems the talk on here of Ben Gibson refusing to train might have been wide off the mark.

Gazette indicating Burnley asked us if he can train with us to take stting out of his fall out with Dyche. No suggestion from Burnley he has refused to train.

Might be something to do with being told to train with the younger lads?  

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

42 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I kinda think people don't like it actually.  I think a narrative has formed that Fry isn't very good and that's now how it is.  I don't think he's been amazing this season, I'm certain that he hasn't been, but then neither has anyone else.  The fact that it's possible to define him as statistically our best defender this season and even you, one of the most reasonable people on here (certainly more than I am), isn't that interested in it says quite a lot.  Because, to me, what you're saying is that the good things he is doing matter less than mistakes he makes and more importantly that the good things other people are doing somehow matter more.  I don't think that's fair personally.  If people say Fry is crap in the air and actually he wins more than every other Boro player then that is an important point to make and it shouldn't be ignored.  It's something that simply isn't true but gets presented as though it's fact, presumably on the basis of the one header he loses in a game or whatever.

I don't think many if any people don't like it, some people don't respect it for sure but I don't think people care enough about stats or players not to like the narrative stats form on their own.

I do respect the stats for what they are but I also respect what my own eyes tell me otherwise I wouldn't bother judging players at all and I think it takes a balance of both to judge a player. I don't think you're wrong to pull up stats to support your arguments either, I think you do right to do that and it certainly affects my opinion seeing those stats, just as I hope those so incredibly fearful of relegation read through the stuff I posted in the Relegation Battle thread and perhaps eases their mind. It still doesn't tell me enough overall in a couple of paragraphs to override my personal view on his season but I can do nothing but respect factual information as that's what it is and I suspect that will remain true for what I've said elsewhere too.

It's also worth saying that I don't think Fry is a crap player and that's another distinction I'd make between what I've said and others have. I don't think he's had a good season but there's a difference there. I think some have gone too far in saying we should just get rid for example; I think if anything you don't sell a player as young as Fry with as much potential as he has after a bad season playing, in some manner, out of position in a side that isn't collectively defending well.

[Smoggydownsouth 1,621]

Lots of stuff going around ref Gibbo... fell out with Dyche when no transfer materialised and then was sent into U23s but then fell out with the coach there who said he was lazy in training and no wonder he wont make it at Burnley was what I have been told has gone down.

[Smoggydownsouth 1,621]

2 hours ago, Changing Times said:

Not unless you provide some more ITK juicy gossip right now otherwise I am going to keep hounding you about this for the rest of your life.

I'm saving myself for if we lose on saturday to ease the pain 😉

[TeaCider24 12,638]

Gazette seem to think we've no chance of signing him in the summer because of the fee/wages.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

42 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

Gazette seem to think we've no chance of signing him in the summer because of the fee/wages.

Or they're pushing that story in the hope Burnley realise they'll have to lower their asking price/up their wage contribution. We might have a limit we won't go beyond but I'm willing to bet that we're gonna try using the whole situation to our advantage.