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Superb article from The Athletic published today... Gives you a real sense that something special is being built. We've been crying out for this for so long.   Michael Walker 2h ago  2 

It is emotional blackmail and the situation has been clearly fabricated, if you look at the handwriting its obvious that Wayne Rooney wrote that letter. 

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1 minute ago, SouthernSmoggie said:

Interesting... I did hear the Jordan comments but don't fully understand the technicalities of the whole Derby becoming debt-free and returning stronger thing. Was news to me that the £45m thing was *** (I guess Simon may have heard that from Steve himself...?)

I just hope it doesn't dissolve into "Boro are trying to kill Derby" and we get piled on... which is the narrative they're clearly desperate to create. We all know what football fans and pundits are like and most people won't read or understand the details. I'm a Boro fan and I still admit to not fully getting some of it. 

Jordan had said he'd spoken to people at all ends, I think. Gibson, Morris and the administrator. He seems to count all as either decent people or friends but had stuff to say about Morris' handling of it. He also said knowing Gibson as long as he has, he wouldn't make a fuss about something were there not some justification for it.

For me personally, the big thing is looking back at the season in question. Thinking we should be due any kind of compensation for that season is hard. It entirely fits in with the narrative Pulis had after his last game, the whole 'finishing 7th better than 5th the year before'. I have a hard time accepting that finish was anything but our own fault but in fighting this case, we are saying it is in some way Derby's because of their cheating. I don't honestly think there's enough there in sporting terms to suggest they put themselves in a significantly difficult position to best and Pulis was certainly getting paid enough to justify him doing better with the squad we had.

But that's just the emotional side of it for me. Reading what Rob Nichols told us and what Jordan has said certainly opens your eyes to how essentially evil the situation remains from a Derby perspective. I still hate Morris for what he's done and I hate the idea they could fight their way out of their situation this season or even look remotely rosy next season. I don't want them to disappear, I'll feel some sense of relief if/when they get bought. But so long as they reach that stage, I'll have them under my own 'intense scrutiny'.

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22 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

For me personally, the big thing is looking back at the season in question. Thinking we should be due any kind of compensation for that season is hard. It entirely fits in with the narrative Pulis had after his last game, the whole 'finishing 7th better than 5th the year before'. I have a hard time accepting that finish was anything but our own fault but in fighting this case, we are saying it is in some way Derby's because of their cheating. I don't honestly think there's enough there in sporting terms to suggest they put themselves in a significantly difficult position to best and Pulis was certainly getting paid enough to justify him doing better with the squad we had.

Not sure I agree with that.

If it was a race and we were leading Derby until the final lap and then tripped over our own shoelaces, and that that's the only reason they finished ahead of us, obviously it's our fault that we didn't beat them.

But if it then turned out that Derby were on performance enhancing drugs they'd have been disqualified even though it was ultimately our own actions that cost us the race.

Obviously their massive coordinated cheating of FFP would be the performance enhancing drugs.

 

Pulis *** up massively to cost us a play-off spot that looked assured, but the only team that was even close to us outside of the top 5 was a Derby side that cheated consistently.

Even after our 6 defeats in a row, the team in 8th finished 3 points behind us, the team in 9th was 7 points behind.

Edited by TeaCider24
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49 minutes ago, Brunners said:

Check out the love between Crooks & Payero. Makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Clearly Payero does feel involved and that bodes so well, even Paddy went up to him. Real bond developing it seems

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2 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

Not sure I agree with that.

If it was a race and we were leading Derby until the final lap and then tripped over our own shoelaces, and that that's the only reason they finished ahead of us, obviously it's our fault that we didn't beat them.

But if it then turned out that Derby were on performance enhancing drugs they'd have been disqualified even though it was ultimately our own actions that cost us the race.

Obviously their massive coordinate cheating of FFP would be the performance enhancing drugs.

 

Pulis *** up massively to cost us a play-off spot that looked assured, but the only team that was even close to us outside of the top 5 were a Derby side that cheated consistently.

The team in 8th were 3 points behind us, the team in 9th were 7.

I wouldn't equate the difference between our combined abilities from season start to end, within our club from the top down, to being like they were on performance enhancing drugs compared to us. They cheated but I don't think that suddenly made them or their squad in any way better than ours. That summer window was quite possibly the worst we've seen since relegation, too.

There is so much about that year that fills me with dread to think about because we handled it so badly from start to end. Derby spending beyond their means didn't, or perhaps shouldn't have, affected us anywhere near as much as we seem to claim it has.

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1 minute ago, Downsouth said:

Clearly Payero does feel involved and that bodes so well, even Paddy went up to him. Real bond developing it seems

So important.  Wilder totally justified in his comments about Crooks being first choice and Payero having that as a barrier.  But the importance of team spirit and bond will be crucial.  Injuries/suspensions will likely come into play and feel for the first time in a while we are trying to ensure we have cover in all areas of the pitch that have the attributes we highlight as being required for them. 

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11 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I wouldn't equate the difference between our combined abilities from season start to end, within our club from the top down, to being like they were on performance enhancing drugs compared to us. They cheated but I don't think that suddenly made them or their squad in any way better than ours. That summer window was quite possibly the worst we've seen since relegation, too.

I didn't say it did.

We had a better squad, and more investment than them, they still cheated to get the squad that they did have.

Cheating doesn't necessarily make you better than somebody else, it just closes the gap.

Derby indisputably cheated, and they finished above us because they cheated. 

Waghorn, a player they breached FFP to sign ahead of us, scored 5 goals that led to two wins and two draws.

He assisted 2 goals that led to a win and a draw.

He also scored another 4 goals and provided 1 assist that helped lead to wins, but weren't integral to them.

They finished above us by 1 point, and a player they cheated to sign was directly responsible for at least 12 of their points that season.

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As much as I'd love to see more of Martin, can't complain about our midfield trio who have played most others off the park since Wilder came in. Reading is the first game I can't recall us dominating the other midfield with pressure and possession. I'd also say that Crooks is neck and neck with Jones for our player of the season award and I wouldn't be looking to drop the big fella.

I do wonder if there's the potential to play Crooks and Payero in the same midfield longer term. It's been noticeable that Howson is no longer playing an out and out DM role, he's often picking up positions edge of the box and rotating a bit with Crooks and Tav. Having 3 energetic box to box midfielders, all with a real threat to the goal is a tasty prospect.

Still waiting to be woken up, the past few months since Warnock's gone have been dream like. Attractive football, winning mentality, team spirit, connection with the fans, promising low risk signings, honesty and real plans short & long term from the senior positions at the club. Far cry from the *** coming off the forked tongues of Warnock/Pulis/Monk and co.

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As much as I love seeing Crooks in that half -space linking up with Jones and Dijksteel, I can't help but think Crooks could be the long term answer in Howson's role which opens up the place for Payero. 

 

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7 minutes ago, boksicdink said:

As much as I love seeing Crooks in that half -space linking up with Jones and Dijksteel, I can't help but think Crooks could be the long term answer in Howson's role which opens up the place for Payero. 

 

I agree but I also feel it's hard to justify moving him around when he's playing his role to near perfection. Payero has to come in and show us that we're missing out without him in the side to justify any change to the way Crooks plays. 

Not that he'll see it but my apologies to our favourite palm tree for ever thinking he was just going to be a big lump shithouse. He's the 7m midfielder we paid Millwall for.

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Agree that we need to get back to dominating teams but boy it is exciting waiting for  team sheets and subs announced am sure we are going to start clicking very soon.

Those SU posters were spot on and Boro will be watched by others much more than before 

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3 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

I didn't say it did.

We had a better squad, and more investment than them, they still cheated to get the squad that they did have.

Cheating doesn't necessarily make you better than somebody else, it just closes the gap.

Derby indisputably cheated, and they finished above us because they cheated. 

Waghorn, a player they breached FFP to sign ahead of us, scored 5 goals that led to two wins and two draws.

He assisted 2 goals that led to a win and a draw.

He also scored another 4 goals and provided 1 assist that helped lead to wins, but weren't integral to them.

They finished above us by 1 point, and a player they cheated to sign was directly responsible for at least 12 of their points that season.

But if they didn't have a good enough squad to best ours and anywhere near as much investment as we had, why were we even so close to them at all so that they could beat us by a single point?

By the end of the season there was only 1 point in it, Waghorn earned them 12, so what? My point is it shouldn't have even got to that stage. We should have been comfortably in the play-offs if not challenging for further beyond that. We finished a whole 16 points off 2nd place, we weren't even close to challenging for automatics by the end of it but our club at that stage should have been right up there.

There is so much that we did wrong to end up where we did in those 2 years that it feels in some way a justified finish, to me. My personal feelings coming out of that season were that we finished where we deserved to. Knowing that Derby finished above us and that they cheated doesn't make me revisit that season and think any different because I'm significantly more bothered about what we do over the course of a 46 game season than any other club, cheating or not. It's not like they filled their squad with supremely talented players, they got Martyn Waghorn ahead of us and we were annoyed about that, that says more about our ***-poor recruitment, to me.

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3 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

But if they didn't have a good enough squad to best ours and anywhere near as much investment as we had, why were we even so close to them at all so that they could beat us by a single point?

By the end of the season there was only 1 point in it, Waghorn earned them 12, so what? My point is it shouldn't have even got to that stage. We should have been comfortably in the play-offs if not challenging for further beyond that. We finished a whole 16 points off 2nd place, we weren't even close to challenging for automatics by the end of it but our club at that stage should have been right up there.

There is so much that we did wrong to end up where we did in those 2 years that it feels in some way a justified finish, to me. My personal feelings coming out of that season were that we finished where we deserved to. Knowing that Derby finished above us and that they cheated doesn't make me revisit that season and think any different because I'm significantly more bothered about what we do over the course of a 46 game season than any other club, cheating or not. It's not like they filled their squad with supremely talented players, they got Martyn Waghorn ahead of us and we were annoyed about that, that says more about our ***-poor recruitment, to me.

I'm personally of the opinion that Derby should be deducted more points for being willing to pay £5m for Martyn Waghorn.

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1 minute ago, wilsoncgp said:

But if they didn't have a good enough squad to best ours and anywhere near as much investment as we had, why were we even so close to them at all so that they could beat us by a single point?

By the end of the season there was only 1 point in it, Waghorn earned them 12, so what? My point is it shouldn't have even got to that stage. We should have been comfortably in the play-offs if not challenging for further beyond that. We finished a whole 16 points off 2nd place, we weren't even close to challenging for automatics by the end of it but our club at that stage should have been right up there.

There is so much that we did wrong to end up where we did in those 2 years that it feels in some way a justified finish, to me. My personal feelings coming out of that season were that we finished where we deserved to. Knowing that Derby finished above us and that they cheated doesn't make me revisit that season and think any different because I'm significantly more bothered about what we do over the course of a 46 game season than any other club, cheating or not. It's not like they filled their squad with supremely talented players, they got Martyn Waghorn ahead of us and we were annoyed about that, that says more about our ***-poor recruitment, to me.

I'm not really understanding your argument, to be honest.

We shot ourselves in the foot, nobody is denying that, but Derby indisputably cheated to finish above us.

So Gibson has a case.

The fact that Pulis led an implosion doesn't change that.

Screenshot_20220117-171722_Chrome.thumb.jpg.81f0ce3417d68315555696b9da53a5bf.jpg

This was the table at the half way point of the season, Derby were keeping pace with us long before our 6 game losing run near the end, it's not like we were out of sight and they just snuck in.

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