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7 minutes ago, Denzel Zanzibar said:

Welcome back, there's a dedicated Derby thread now btw

I've said all I want to say really.  The rest is a load of nonsense.  Hopefully Derby will get themselves sorted, and hopefully the EFL will get themselves sorted.  I wouldn't bank on the latter but I think the former will happen relatively soon.

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1 minute ago, Changing Times said:

We didn't get robbed of a chance to compete.  We competed, and finished behind, a club who broke a rule.  My analogy is the correct one in these circumstances.

Just as an aside, didn't we break FFP rules the year we got promoted?  I'm sure we made a £25m loss that season?  We would have had to find a lot of things to remove from FFP consideration to have made it under the limit.

Your analogy isn't correct in my opinion. The aim of the season was to get to the playoffs which is a different competition with a monetary value associated with it. Winning the playoffs is a different matter.  We did not get a chance to complete in that competition (or the finals in the race). Are we not entitled to at least the moneys that would've been gained from getting to the playoffs?

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21 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

The issue, as it has been from the start, is a governing body that isn't fit for purpose.  It wants to be in charge but without the responsibility that being in charge really entails.  They have rules but don't necessarily want to enforce them.  They would prefer it if the clubs just behaved as they are 'supposed' to but that is incredibly naive.  If you want the power then you also get the responsibility, which in this case means you need an ability to investigate your members conduct/behaviour thoroughly, and then to deal with any breaches of those rules effectively and in a timely manner.  This is something that the EFL can't manage as it stands.

I agree with all of this.

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6 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

We didn't get robbed of a chance to compete.  We competed, and finished behind, a club who broke a rule.  My analogy is the correct one in these circumstances.

Just as an aside, didn't we break FFP rules the year we got promoted?  I'm sure we made a £25m loss that season?  We would have had to find a lot of things to remove from FFP consideration to have made it under the limit.

Yes we did. If Derby had submitted correct ffp results they would have got a points penalty that season. Instead they got 3 sets of FFP penalty points this season. 

 

Also, no we didn't break EFL FFP Rules, as different rules apply if you are promoted. If we had failed to get promotion we would have adjusted finances to remain with EFL rules, but as we weren't there was no reason to do it. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr_Maz said:

Yes we did. If Derby had submitted correct ffp results they would have got a points penalty that season. Instead they got 3 sets of FFP penalty points this season. 

 

Also, no we didn't break EFL FFP Rules, as different rules apply if you are promoted. If we had failed to get promotion we would have adjusted finances to remain with EFL rules, but as we weren't there was no reason to do it. 

 

I think we would have broken them for that season. At the time FFP was judged on a season by season basis, not a 3 year cycle as it is now. The result would have probably been a transfer embargo until we made sales of our more valuable players.

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2 minutes ago, notjade said:

Your analogy isn't correct in my opinion. The aim of the season was to get to the playoffs which is a different competition with a monetary value associated with it. Winning the playoffs is a different matter.  We did not get a chance to complete in that competition (or the finals in the race). Are we not entitled to at least the moneys that would've been gained from getting to the playoffs?

The aim of the season was to get to the playoffs?  Was it?  I thought the aim of the season was to win the league?

No, I don't think we are entitled to the money but then I'm not bothered about the money in this instance.  Us missing out on a chance at the play offs would annoy me because I'd have liked to see us in the play offs*, not because I'd have liked to see a bit of extra gate and TV money.

*Although having to watch three more games under Pulis, and then however many more, is maybe something I'd be willing to sacrifice over promotion ambition.

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2 minutes ago, Will said:

I think we would have broken them for that season. At the time FFP was judged on a season by season basis, not a 3 year cycle as it is now. The result would have probably been a transfer embargo until we made sales of our more valuable players.

Are you sure? The 3 year thing has been going a while? 

 

Anyway, Don't think they can tell you who to sell to get back in line. We would have to show we have taken the correct measures to get back in line with the limits, which could include selling players 

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1 minute ago, Changing Times said:

The aim of the season was to get to the playoffs?  Was it?  I thought the aim of the season was to win the league?

No, I don't think we are entitled to the money but then I'm not bothered about the money in this instance.  Us missing out on a chance at the play offs would annoy me because I'd have liked to see us in the play offs*, not because I'd have liked to see a bit of extra gate and TV money.

*Although having to watch three more games under Pulis, and then however many more, is maybe something I'd be willing to sacrifice over promotion ambition.

Well the aim of the season clearly changed as it became clear we weren't going to win the league or get top 2.

I honestly couldn't give a *** about the money, and I doubt Gibbo does either, but he wants to set the precendent to further discourage people from cheating. If he didn't go after Derby in this instance it would encourage clubs to keep submitting cooked books until they are caught, instead of just coming clean because there would essentially be no extra repercussions in trying to hide it

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Just now, Mr_Maz said:

Are you sure? The 3 year thing has been going a while? 

 

Anyway, Don't think they can tell you who to sell to get back in line. We would have to show we have taken the correct measures to get back in line with the limits, which could include selling players 

I'm pretty sure the new P&S regulations were introduced in 2017. 

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5 minutes ago, Mr_Maz said:

Yes we did. If Derby had submitted correct ffp results they would have got a points penalty that season. Instead they got 3 sets of FFP penalty points this season. 

 

Also, no we didn't break EFL FFP Rules, as different rules apply if you are promoted. If we had failed to get promotion we would have adjusted finances to remain with EFL rules, but as we weren't there was no reason to do it. 

 

They did submit the correct results, whatever that means.  The EFL passed them as being ok at the time, which was and is a part of the problem.  As I said, the issue is with governance, not the club.  It's also worth pointing out that FFP can only be truly assessed after the fact, so it's not like you can see someone is breaking the rules in real time.

Ah, different rules apply if you are promoted.  So, what you're telling me is that if Derby had finished 6th, and thengotten promoted, we wouldn't be having this discussion now because what they did would have been ok in those circumstances, and Gibson would have been fine with that?  It's not that the cheating is the issue, it's the failure that's the issue.  Cheating and succeeding is fine, cheating and failing is not 🤭

We did break FFP rules.  We were allowed a £13m loss that year, our loss was about double that.  The fact that we got promoted is irrelevant.  You either break the rules or you don't, this is the bit that you don't seem to understand, and it's why your argument is ultimately incorrect.  The outcome of the cheating shouldn't matter.  Either cheating is wrong or it isn't.  

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Just now, Changing Times said:

They did submit the correct results, whatever that means.  The EFL passed them as being ok at the time, which was and is a part of the problem.  As I said, the issue is with governance, not the club.  It's also worth pointing out that FFP can only be truly assessed after the fact, so it's not like you can see someone is breaking the rules in real time.

Ah, different rules apply if you are promoted.  So, what you're telling me is that if Derby had finished 6th, and thengotten promoted, we wouldn't be having this discussion now because what they did would have been ok in those circumstances, and Gibson would have been fine with that?  It's not that the cheating is the issue, it's the failure that's the issue.  Cheating and succeeding is fine, cheating and failing is not 🤭

We did break FFP rules.  We were allowed a £13m loss that year, our loss was about double that.  The fact that we got promoted is irrelevant.  You either break the rules or you don't, this is the bit that you don't seem to understand, and it's why your argument is ultimately incorrect.  The outcome of the cheating shouldn't matter.  Either cheating is wrong or it isn't.  

Is that figure a bit misleading? Isn't the figure so high because we got promoted? Extras like bonuses etc to players / clubs for transfers.

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5 minutes ago, Will said:

I'm pretty sure the new P&S regulations were introduced in 2017. 

2016/17 was the first year of three year rolling assessment.  2015/16 we quite clearly broke the FFP rules in place at the time.

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

They did submit the correct results, whatever that means.  The EFL passed them as being ok at the time, which was and is a part of the problem.  As I said, the issue is with governance, not the club.  It's also worth pointing out that FFP can only be truly assessed after the fact, so it's not like you can see someone is breaking the rules in real time.

Ah, different rules apply if you are promoted.  So, what you're telling me is that if Derby had finished 6th, and thengotten promoted, we wouldn't be having this discussion now because what they did would have been ok in those circumstances, and Gibson would have been fine with that?  It's not that the cheating is the issue, it's the failure that's the issue.  Cheating and succeeding is fine, cheating and failing is not 🤭

We did break FFP rules.  We were allowed a £13m loss that year, our loss was about double that.  The fact that we got promoted is irrelevant.  You either break the rules or you don't, this is the bit that you don't seem to understand, and it's why your argument is ultimately incorrect.  The outcome of the cheating shouldn't matter.  Either cheating is wrong or it isn't.  

Um, pretty much. That's why the clubs that did break FFP to go up had very little done to them. QPR ate a big fine because they came right back down.

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