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Just now, Changing Times said:

2016/17 was the first year of three year rolling assessment.  2015/16 we quite clearly broke the FFP rules in place at the time.

I have said that we broke them/would have broken them had we not been promoted. DON'T COME AT ME AFTER I WELCOMED YOU BACK WITH OPEN ARMS BIG BOY

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1 minute ago, Will said:

I have said that we broke them/would have broken them had we not been promoted. DON'T COME AT ME AFTER I WELCOMED YOU BACK WITH OPEN ARMS BIG BOY

I was agreeing with you my loyal acolyte.

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I feel like there's more to it than just avoiding punishment because we were promoted.

Derby, Middlesbrough, Brighton, Hull, Reading and Bristol City all recorded losses over the £13m mark in 2015/16.

None were punished for it.

Brighton lost £26m and weren't promoted.

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

They did submit the correct results, whatever that means.  The EFL passed them as being ok at the time, which was and is a part of the problem.  As I said, the issue is with governance, not the club.  It's also worth pointing out that FFP can only be truly assessed after the fact, so it's not like you can see someone is breaking the rules in real time.

Ah, different rules apply if you are promoted.  So, what you're telling me is that if Derby had finished 6th, and thengotten promoted, we wouldn't be having this discussion now because what they did would have been ok in those circumstances, and Gibson would have been fine with that?  It's not that the cheating is the issue, it's the failure that's the issue.  Cheating and succeeding is fine, cheating and failing is not 🤭

We did break FFP rules.  We were allowed a £13m loss that year, our loss was about double that.  The fact that we got promoted is irrelevant.  You either break the rules or you don't, this is the bit that you don't seem to understand, and it's why your argument is ultimately incorrect.  The outcome of the cheating shouldn't matter.  Either cheating is wrong or it isn't.  

If they had got promoted that season then they wouldnt have had to do the dodgy accounting and would not have penalised the following season as EPl rules would apply, which allows a fine to be paid for failing FFP the previous year. 

 

But they did the dodgy account the previous and following year so that means they would have had the penalty points for every season in the EFL...which is what they got this year. 

 

We didn't break FFP rules, we failed FFP for the EFL, but as a promoted EPl team the rules allowed us to pay a fine instead. Alternatively we could have made sales to stick within the 13m, we chose the legal option of a fine instead. 

 

Either you don't understand how the rules change once your promoted or you're doing your usual trolling *** again....

ADMINS - Any chance of another ban? 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Brunners said:

Um, pretty much. That's why the clubs that did break FFP to go up had very little done to them. QPR ate a big fine because they came right back down.

Exactly, so cheating isn't the issue then, is it?  Look how wronged we were, not because Derby broke FFP rules, but because the swines didn't get promoted after doing so?  You're an intelligent lad, forget club loyalties for a minute, and actually read that back to yourself a few times.  It's utter nonsense.

Gibson has no issue at all with what Derby did, he's annoyed cos they did it and didn't get promoted?  Eh?  Either you're mad at cheating or you're not.  You can't be mad at cheating only when it's unsuccessful, or when you're not the one doing it.

Gibson has a personal beef with Morris, this is all about that, and I think that is absolutely wrong.  

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Just now, Changing Times said:

Exactly, so cheating isn't the issue then, is it?  Look how wronged we were, not because Derby broke FFP rules, but because the swines didn't get promoted after doing so?  You're an intelligent lad, forget club loyalties for a minute, and actually read that back to yourself a few times.  It's utter nonsense.

Gibson has no issue at all with what Derby did, he's annoyed cos they did it and didn't get promoted?  Eh?  Either you're mad at cheating or you're not.  You can't be mad at cheating only when it's unsuccessful, or when you're not the one doing it.

Gibson has a personal beef with Morris, this is all about that, and I think that is absolutely wrong.  

He does have personal beef with Morris.

But also my point was simply that once they're promoted I'm not sure there is anything he can do, different leagues ran by different people.

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2 minutes ago, Mr_Maz said:

If they had got promoted that season then they wouldnt have had to do the dodgy accounting and would not have penalised the following season as EPl rules would apply, which allows a fine to be paid for failing FFP the previous year. 

 

But they did the dodgy account the previous and following year so that means they would have had the penalty points for every season in the EFL...which is what they got this year. 

 

We didn't break FFP rules, we failed FFP for the EFL, but as a promoted EPl team the rules allowed us to pay a fine instead. Alternatively we could have made sales to stick within the 13m, we chose the legal option of a fine instead. 

 

Either you don't understand how the rules change once your promoted or you're doing your usual trolling *** again....

ADMINS - Any chance of another ban? 

 

 

Yeah, why not another ban, it's the way we win arguments nowadays, just get rid of the opponent.

They were doing the amortisation method during the season in question.  This is what they did to cheat FFP otherwise they'd have overspent, just as we did in 2015/16 when we quite clearly broke the FFP rules.

I do understand the rules.  I understand that cheating is fine as long as you succeed.  Meanwhile, you're all complaining because Derby cheated.  The issue isn't cheating, it's cheating and failing.  That shouldn't be the issue, should it?  Sensible people would understand that cheating is wrong or it isn't, not that the outcome is what determines whether it was wrong or not.  I break into a car and get away with it, that's ok, I break into a car and get caught, that's not ok.  Some would suggest that breaking into the car is the actual issue, not whether I get away with it or not.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Changing Times said:

Yeah, why not another ban, it's the way we win arguments nowadays, just get rid of the opponent.

They were doing the amortisation method during the season in question.  This is what they did to cheat FFP otherwise they'd have overspent, just as we did in 2015/16 when we quite clearly broke the FFP rules.

I do understand the rules.  I understand that cheating is fine as long as you succeed.  Meanwhile, you're all complaining because Derby cheated.  The issue isn't cheating, it's cheating and failing.  That shouldn't be the issue, should it?  Sensible people would understand that cheating is wrong or it isn't, not that the outcome is what determines whether it was wrong or not.  I break into a car and get away with it, that's ok, I break into a car and get caught, that's not ok.  Some would suggest that breaking into the car is the actual issue, not whether I get away with it or not.

Why were Brighton not punished for their £26m losses?

They weren't promoted, they didn't utilise dodgy accounting.

The more likely outcome is it wasn't as simple as you've cheated if you lose more than £13m.

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2 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Yeah, why not another ban, it's the way we win arguments nowadays, just get rid of the opponent.

They were doing the amortisation method during the season in question.  This is what they did to cheat FFP otherwise they'd have overspent, just as we did in 2015/16 when we quite clearly broke the FFP rules.

I do understand the rules.  I understand that cheating is fine as long as you succeed.  Meanwhile, you're all complaining because Derby cheated.  The issue isn't cheating, it's cheating and failing.  That shouldn't be the issue, should it?  Sensible people would understand that cheating is wrong or it isn't, not that the outcome is what determines whether it was wrong or not.  I break into a car and get away with it, that's ok, I break into a car and get caught, that's not ok.  Some would suggest that breaking into the car is the actual issue, not whether I get away with it or not.

 

 

This is just a side effect of it being calculated over a 3 year period. It is not cheating to splash the cash one season and absolutely go for it, as long as you cut back outside of that season if you do not succeed. Derby did not cut back. They decided to fiddle the books instead

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4 minutes ago, Brunners said:

He does have personal beef with Morris.

But also my point was simply that once they're promoted I'm not sure there is anything he can do, different leagues ran by different people.

That shouldn't matter though.  You were a member of the EFL when you broke FFP rules so you get punished on that basis.  Whether it's a suspended points deduction, a fine or whatever else, you broke the rules so you get punished.  If you don't do it then you're actually rewarding cheating, in fact if you're going to cheat then you may as well go big on it to make sure that you actually succeed in the end.  Nobody can seriously think that's a sensible way to operate?

FFP doesn't work.  It's not protecting clubs, it's not punishing crappy owners.  Nobody should be limited as to how much money they can invest in their own business anyway.  You've actually got a set or regulations that encourage cheating, and then people getting whipped up into a frenzy about it.  Yet we also broke those same rules, and I don't believe anyone on here cared about it back then or does now.

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3 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Yeah, why not another ban, it's the way we win arguments nowadays, just get rid of the opponent.

They were doing the amortisation method during the season in question.  This is what they did to cheat FFP otherwise they'd have overspent, just as we did in 2015/16 when we quite clearly broke the FFP rules.

I do understand the rules.  I understand that cheating is fine as long as you succeed.  Meanwhile, you're all complaining because Derby cheated.  The issue isn't cheating, it's cheating and failing.  That shouldn't be the issue, should it?  Sensible people would understand that cheating is wrong or it isn't, not that the outcome is what determines whether it was wrong or not.  I break into a car and get away with it, that's ok, I break into a car and get caught, that's not ok.  Some would suggest that breaking into the car is the actual issue, not whether I get away with it or not.

 

 

You seem to have trouble understanding. 

You either pass or fail FFP. 

Cheating involves breaking the rules, which is what they did with their fancy amortisation method. 

Sensible people would be able to understand this. 

 

If they hadn't broken the rules and cheated they would have failed EFL FFP. 

You're analogy is stupid and reflects your lack of understanding 

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5 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

Why were Brighton not punished for their £26m losses?

They weren't promoted, they didn't utilise dodgy accounting.

The more likely outcome is it wasn't as simple as you've cheated if you lose more than £13m.

They apparently claimed that the actual FFP loss was much lower 🤷‍♂️

I think it's a lot more to do with the EFL not really wanting to do anything unless they absolutely have to, which is exactly what has happened with Derby County, and all of this stuff.

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The really big problem in all this is the EFL. And it’s not all of their making either, it’s just they have been doing this since 1888, and what they were set up to do and how they do it have left the institution as judge, jury, executioner, independent adjudicator and runner of 3 leagues all at the same time.

In the past it was accepted that the EFL and it’s judgements and decisions were unquestioned. Basically you jumped through their hoops because if you didn’t you were always free to join a different league. 

Then came the split and we lost 4 divisions of the football league and got 2 separate identities running the two leagues. As such over night the EFL lost the big boys and the money but kept its powers but we entered a time where courts could challenge things and governments were willing to threaten to act, so the EFL modernised, by which it kept all existing rules and added more.

The EFL is there to represent all its members, just not its members interests. Changes will be coming as Derby dispute has become so public in parliament, the calls for parts of the EFL power and authority will grow and they will loose lots of this. Will it become better I doubt it adding another institution to the mix never does, but fans should be more clear of who and what and how their clubs fate is being dealt with by the EFL 

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7 minutes ago, Mr_Maz said:

You seem to have trouble understanding. 

You either pass or fail FFP. 

Cheating involves breaking the rules, which is what they did with their fancy amortisation method. 

Sensible people would be able to understand this. 

 

If they hadn't broken the rules and cheated they would have failed EFL FFP. 

You're analogy is stupid and reflects your lack of understanding 

No, I understand it fully.

Derby were fined £100k because of the (cheating) amortisation method that they used.  There was no points deduction for this. 

Derby were deducted points because they failed FFP, not because they 'cheated'.

The points deduction came about because of the revised accounts, which removed this amortisation method, showed that they had in fact breached FFP rules and were over the limit.

Stupid me 🙁

 

 

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