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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Brunners said:

Why?

I like Warnock, I don't get upset by direct football if it works, and I think he'd have us comfortably upper mid-table at the very least with some investment.

People were crying constantly about the football under Karanka, and it was easily the  best time we'd had in the last decade.

I've just accepted that some of our fans are going to dislike the football we play, and it shouldn't impact my enjoyment of it.

Edited by TeaCider24
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8 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

I like Warnock, I don't get upset by direct football if it works, and I think he'd have us comfortably upper mid-table at the very least with some investment.

People were crying constantly about the football under Karanka, and it was the easily best time we'd had in the last decade.

I've just accepted that some of our fans are going to dislike the football we play, and it shouldn't impact my enjoyment of it.

and at the end of next season when he inevitably leaves and we're back to square one with a squad full of journeymen & no long term plan or direction?

Liking Warnock in a vacuum is fine; I wouldn't mind it myself during the season; knowing you're almost virtually safe from the first kick off will be nice again. But context matters, a season of Warnock means no growth at the football club for at least 1 more year, and shows that SG still isn't learning from prior mistakes.

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1 minute ago, TeaCider24 said:

I like Warnock, I don't get upset by direct football if it works, and I think he'd have us comfortably upper mid-table at the very least with some investment.

 

Is that where this club sees itself in the long term, upper mid-table in the Championship? I don't think so, everything about this appointment screams to me that Gibson is making a desperate dash for promotion again with very little thought about the long-term suitability of this appointment or how building a team in Warnock's image will damage the years to come when Warnock is gone.

Gone is this idea that the club is going to re-shape itself into a modern football club. It wants immediate modern-day success whilst continuing to run itself like it's 20 years ago. We should be going back to the drawing board.

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11 minutes ago, Brunners said:

and at the end of next season when he inevitably leaves and we're back to square one with a squad full of journeymen & no long term plan or direction?

Liking Warnock in a vacuum is fine; I wouldn't mind it myself during the season; knowing you're almost virtually safe from the first kick off will be nice again. But context matters, a season of Warnock means no growth at the football club for at least 1 more year, and shows that SG still isn't learning from prior mistakes.

If that's square one, we're in square -5 right now.

Cardiff after Warnock are pushing for promotion yet again.

I don't think many clubs outside of the established top flight have long-term plans or directions that they stick to anymore. Managers don't stay long enough.

Leeds went through 11 managers in 5 seasons, but the 11th one is getting them promoted and that was not part of a long term plan.

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But Bielsa has come in and totally transformed them tactically. They’ve had a few good players but Bielsa has improved average players into league leaders. Similarly to Wilder at Sheff Utd. Warnock will get you high up the league but not with good tactics (in my opinion). I’d much rather spend big on a manager and then let him recruit players he identifies.  That’s where we keep going wrong. It’s scatter gun and knee jerk. 

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5 minutes ago, ManBearPig said:

But Bielsa has come in and totally transformed them tactically. They’ve had a few good players but Bielsa has improved average players into league leaders. Similarly to Wilder at Sheff Utd. Warnock will get you high up the league but not with good tactics (in my opinion). I’d much rather spend big on a manager and then let him recruit players he identifies.  That’s where we keep going wrong. It’s scatter gun and knee jerk. 

In the position we are in, to be got up the league is something we need to grasp. Spending big on a manager may not be possible and recruiiting players he would like may be equaly difficult. Wheeling and dealing may be the only way.

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39 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

I like Warnock, I don't get upset by direct football if it works, and I think he'd have us comfortably upper mid-table at the very least with some investment.

People were crying constantly about the football under Karanka, and it was the easily best time we'd had in the last decade.

I've just accepted that some of our fans are going to dislike the football we play, and it shouldn't impact my enjoyment of it.

I feel the same. Winning is generally enjoyable. 

I also think we won't be as direct as people expect  he will bring in a target man and a couple of wingers and play counter attacking football. 

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8 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

I don't think many clubs outside of the established top flight have long-term plans or directions that they stick to anymore. Managers don't stay long enough.

Leeds went through 11 managers in 5 seasons, but the 11th one is getting them promoted and that was not part of a long term plan.

I look at teams like Brentford and Swansea, teams who haven't been promoted back yet but work in a way that means they build a club for the future. So even when Brentford struggled when they lost Mark Warburton to Rangers, they ended up with Dean Smith who got them back on track immediately. After Dean Smith left to Villa, Thomas Frank has carried on with that improvement and kept them going in a similar way to the point where they could even get automatically promoted this year. We can't do that if we keep changing the style of manager we hire, not to mention our recruitment practices don't even give our better managers the players they need, where Brentford manage to do that and make money on their purchases and give themselves better chances to invest.

Neil Warnock is not Marcelo Bielsa, he's not going to get the best out of pretty much any player that crosses his path. He's not a world-renowned coach who any club in the Championship would snap your hands off to manage them. Neither were any other of Leeds' hires. Bielsa isn't a sign that changing your manager every 5 minutes eventually bears fruit.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I look at teams like Brentford and Swansea, teams who haven't been promoted back yet but work in a way that means they build a club for the future. So even when Brentford struggled when they lost Mark Warburton to Rangers, they ended up with Dean Smith who got them back on track immediately. After Dean Smith left to Villa, Thomas Frank has carried on with that improvement and kept them going in a similar way to the point where they could even get automatically promoted this year. We can't do that if we keep changing the style of manager we hire, not to mention our recruitment practices don't even give our better managers the players they need, where Brentford manage to do that and make money on their purchases and give themselves better chances to invest.

Neil Warnock is not Marcelo Bielsa, he's not going to get the best out of pretty much any player that crosses his path. He's not a world-renowned coach who any club in the Championship would snap your hands off to manage them. Neither were any other of Leeds' hires. Bielsa isn't a sign that changing your manager every 5 minutes eventually bears fruit.

Never said it was, but most promoted clubs either get lucky with a managerial selection and/or blow huge sums, rather than plotting their route for years.

Norwich did not expect promotion, Cardiff did not expect promotion, Huddersfield did not expect promotion, Sheffield United did not expect promotion.

Brentford are pretty much the only example of a long term plan still in the Championship, hopefully they get promoted and it finally pays off.

You could include Bournemouth and Burnley as examples who've been promoted and stuck to their plan.

Swansea were only relegated 1 season ago and lost most of their squad in a fire sale, they've finished 10th and could potentially reach the play-offs this season. That's not an example of a successful long term plan, it's getting a completely new manager in after relegation and the manager beating the odds and finishing mid table with a decimated squad.

Edited by TeaCider24

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19 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

Never said it was.

Brentford are pretty much the only example of a long term plan in the Championship, hopefully they get promoted and it finally pays off.

Swansea were only relegated 1 season ago and lost most of their squad in a fire sale, they've finished 10th and could potentially reach the play-offs this season. That's not an example of a successful long term plan, it's getting a completely new manager in after relegation and the manager beating the odds and finishing mid table with a decimated squad.

Swansea after relegation essentially said they were starting again, they were one of the original teams who showed a long-term plan can work when they got promoted in 2010 having fought through the leagues and it led to many years in the Premier League but when they were in the Prem, they fell into a bit of a trap with the American owners and have re-shuffled the pack after relegation and gone again.

That means this year they're in their 2nd year of their long-term strategy despite losing a manager half-way through. When Graham Potter left, they pushed for another successful young manager with a similar philosophy, they didn't just shift philosophy because of a change of manager. That is showing improvement over the 2 years without significantly changing the way they do things. Karanka did the same thing with us, showed year-on-year improvement but they've managed it without overhauling after a manager left, a manager leaving doesn't mean you have to start from scratch...or it shouldn't.

It doesn't matter if Swansea get promoted this year or not, they've moved into the play-off battle and finishing there would be a success from where they started. All this whilst spending only £7m in permanent transfers across the 2 seasons compared to the £80m they've brought in. They're doing a damn sight better than we are.

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Swansea set their playing identity years ago and are sticking to it, Brentford decided buying low and selling high would sustain them through until they reach the promised land, pertty much the same as Southampton have done.

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1 minute ago, estonpidge said:

Swansea set their playing identity years ago and are sticking to it, Brentford decided buying low and selling high would sustain them through until they reach the promised land, pertty much the same as Southampton have done.

I would have no problem with the buy and sell approach except we have have told anyone who will listen fornthe last three years we are skint.

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They sold their best players and brought in a few cheap signings and loans.

They've done the exact same thing this year. All of those loans go and they start again. 

The only difference between what they've done this year, and what we did, is that Woodgate was rubbish and Steve Cooper is not.

Given I do not dread Warnock's football, management or signings, I've no issue with him laying the ground for his replacement. 

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Well, as we all know, football is a very unstable business, so I'd agree it can be very difficult to follow through with any plans.

But I think what some of us are trying to say, is that the club needs to at least try and settle on a philosophy that can be adhered to over a number of years.

A big part of that has to be recruitment...bringing together a manager (possibly a director of football too) and a coaching staff that will actually improve the players we bring in, as well as developing an effective (and hopefully entertaining) playing style. The other aspect of this is also bringing in players with an eye on the longer term...not just loans or 1-year rolling contracts etc. to see us through rough patches.

Sure, you can't plan for another club coming in and poaching your manager / players, but you can at least stick to a philosophy if and when it does happen, rather than scrap everything and start over.

That said, stability has to start at the top. So the chairman / board have to stop with the knee jerk reactions, idiotic appointments of rookie managers and the boom & bust financial approaches. It should be somewhat easier to plan financially for the long term...but the club has to stick to its guns.

No more dumping millions into the coffers on wing-and-a-prayer promotion bids, only to then have to cut right back to stave off liquidation.

So while you can never know exactly what any season will throw at you, you can still make contingency plans for certain things that may, or will likely happen.

Though given the way Gibson & co have carried on, you would think they'd never heard of that term.

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8 minutes ago, TeaCider24 said:

They sold their best players and brought in a few cheap signings and loans.

They've done the exact same thing this year. All of those loans go and they start again. 

The only difference between what they've done this year, and what we did, is that Woodgate was rubbish and Steve Cooper is not.

Given I do not dread Warnock's football, management or signings, I've no issue with him laying the ground for his replacement. 

Except he won't, will he? He'll leave, SG will decide we need to modernise & play attractive football for a change, and we'll hire another JW. We keep flip flopping between defensive hoof ball & "attractive football" and back again when the latter doesn't work because, surprise surprise, we've got a team built for defensive hoof ball. AND, to top it all off, we can't even do the "defensive" bit now either.

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