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Isn't that very similar to our 'democracy' in Britain?

 

No, because we elect the governing party. If they make a decision no one wanted (privatisation of NHS for example), we would vote them out.

 

We don't have that option with the EU.

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Isn't that very similar to our 'democracy' in Britain?

 

No, because we elect the governing party. If they make a decision no one wanted (privatisation of NHS for example), we would vote them out.

 

We don't have that option with the EU.

 

How do we go about voting out a member of the House of Lords (who can make decisions on laws)?

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Isn't that very similar to our 'democracy' in Britain?

 

No, because we elect the governing party. If they make a decision no one wanted (privatisation of NHS for example), we would vote them out.

 

We don't have that option with the EU.

 

How do we go about voting out a member of the House of Lords (who can make decisions on laws)?

 

The House of Lords can't block laws indefinitely, they can only block them twice. The third time it passes.

 

That point notwithstanding, suggesting one broken system is OK by comparing it to another broken system doesn't really work, does it?

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Ah, but how many of those 55 laws have been to the advantage of the working man?

 

How is that relevant?

 

I was hoping to gain an insight into the identity of the "we" you used. Are you talking about the UK's MEPs, the Council of Ministers or what?

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Ah, but how many of those 55 laws have been to the advantage of the working man?

 

How is that relevant?

 

Because our government could be trying to veto things which are actually beneficial to the working man?

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Isn't that very similar to our 'democracy' in Britain?

 

No, because we elect the governing party. If they make a decision no one wanted (privatisation of NHS for example), we would vote them out.

 

We don't have that option with the EU.

 

How do we go about voting out a member of the House of Lords (who can make decisions on laws)?

 

The House of Lords can't block laws indefinitely, they can only block them twice. The third time it passes.

 

That point notwithstanding, suggesting one broken system is OK by comparing it to another broken system doesn't really work, does it?

 

Well I don't believe either system is broken so that's not what I was trying to do. I'm showing you the clear similarities between the two.

 

In your first post today you said that one of your main problems with the EU is that we as a single member of the EU don't have the power to remove the 'decision makers' in Brussels if we so like. Why on earth would we? Any single Constituency in the UK doesn't have the power to remove the decision makers from power, it is a collective vote just like with the EU. You talk about a lack of democracy when the level of democracy is really very similar to the level of democracy we have in this country.

 

On the second point in your first post, you claim that the electorate and the elected didn't want these 55 laws to be passed. How can you prove this? Yes of course our MEP's voted against it, but how can you possibly say that the electorate didn't want them? I think this may have been the area Bugrit was getting at (although he can correct me if I'm wrong) when he asked how many were for the good of the people.

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Ah, but how many of those 55 laws have been to the advantage of the working man?

 

How is that relevant?

 

Because our government could be trying to veto things which are actually beneficial to the working man?

 

But that has no relevance to the discussion, which was why I felt there's a jurisdictional deficit between the UK electorate and the EU.

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Isn't that very similar to our 'democracy' in Britain?

 

No, because we elect the governing party. If they make a decision no one wanted (privatisation of NHS for example), we would vote them out.

 

We don't have that option with the EU.

 

How do we go about voting out a member of the House of Lords (who can make decisions on laws)?

 

The House of Lords can't block laws indefinitely, they can only block them twice. The third time it passes.

 

That point notwithstanding, suggesting one broken system is OK by comparing it to another broken system doesn't really work, does it?

 

Well I don't believe either system is broken so that's not what I was trying to do. I'm showing you the clear similarities between the two.

 

In your first post today you said that one of your main problems with the EU is that we as a single member of the EU don't have the power to remove the 'decision makers' in Brussels if we so like. Why on earth would we? Any single Constituency in the UK doesn't have the power to remove the decision makers from power, it is a collective vote just like with the EU. You talk about a lack of democracy when the level of democracy is really very similar to the level of democracy we have in this country.

 

On the second point in your first post, you claim that the electorate and the elected didn't want these 55 laws to be passed. How can you prove this? Yes of course our MEP's voted against it, but how can you possibly say that the electorate didn't want them? I think this may have been the area Bugrit was getting at (although he can correct me if I'm wrong) when he asked how many were for the good of the people.

 

Sorry Will but it's nonsense to compare the UK in the EU to a single constituency within the UK. There's far too many political, economic, and ideological differences, it's a deliberately simplistic analogy that gets us nowhere.

 

Regarding the second point, what's the point of having MEP's if they're going to be overruled? You can only work on the assumption those voted in to represent us are representative of us. It's how democracy works- of would you rather we had a referendum for every decision parliament makes to ensure it is the will of the people?

 

Let's not forget that no one in the UK voted for the EU in the current form; even people prominently backing the remain campaign admit it has got out of hand and want reform. Do you think the majority of people would vote to enter the EU in its current form of we were on the outside looking in? Almost certainly not.

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I think we all know that truth of that particular matter, including MidlandsBoro. It's why he didn't answer the question in the first place. ;)

 

I didn't answer the question because it isn't relevant. I don't know what the 55 votes were on, so I can't comment on whether we as the electorate would want them or not.

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I think we all know that truth of that particular matter, including MidlandsBoro. It's why he didn't answer the question in the first place. ;)

 

I didn't answer the question because it isn't relevant. I don't know what the 55 votes were on, so I can't comment on whether we as the electorate would want them or not.

Speaking for myself, I feel that my interests are better served by the EU than they are by the present UK government. To that extent at least, your apparent belief that "we" are having EU legislation imposed on us against our wishes is incorrect.

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I think we all know that truth of that particular matter, including MidlandsBoro. It's why he didn't answer the question in the first place. ;)

 

I didn't answer the question because it isn't relevant. I don't know what the 55 votes were on, so I can't comment on whether we as the electorate would want them or not.

Speaking for myself, I feel that my interests are better served by the EU than they are by the present UK government. To that extent at least, your apparent belief that "we" are having EU legislation imposed on us against our wishes is incorrect.

 

Ah I see. So having legislation forced on us against the will of our elected representatives is fine as long as some of us might like the imposed legislation?

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I think we all know that truth of that particular matter, including MidlandsBoro. It's why he didn't answer the question in the first place. ;)

 

I didn't answer the question because it isn't relevant. I don't know what the 55 votes were on, so I can't comment on whether we as the electorate would want them or not.

 

But it is relevant, of course it's relevant. The remain argument is that we are stronger together and thus we have to see that what the EU puts forward as being beneficial to everyone within the EU. Perhaps it would be relevant to also mention that we are the most common country to vote no to an EU measure. Or that out of those 55 occasions, ~42% have only had a no vote from the UK.

 

I found a good read on that particular topic right here, it suggests that arguing the 55 cases we have voted no doesn't accurately reflect how little our influence is, rather that we should be talking about the policies which don't get to a vote:

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-often-does-eu-overrule-british-ministers/

 

For those who are interested in what those votes were for, I found this within that article, see the bottom with the table:

 

http://forbritain.org/measuring_britains_influence_council_ministers.pdf

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It's difficult to argue against the EU's model they have 28 member states with their own MEPs and their own ideological views it is a vast mix. No doubt there is a 'democratic deficit' between elected MEPs and the commission though that I will concede.

 

But those elected MEPs sit on hundreds of various committee's who submit policy and recommendations to the commission so it is not straightforward that the unelected rule our lives from their goldplated Brussels mansions.

 

The sovereignty argument I hear alot and that meddling regulation but the there is nothing wrong with having our rights both at work and as a consumer enshrined in European law. You are protected whilst making credit card purchases through EU law plus a vast amount of current consumer law comes from the EU. The European court has overruled the UK lawmakers 3% of the time in 40 years the rest of the time the challenges made have gone with our government.

 

Beware of the people who tell you to leave they are insurance brokers unhappy with EU law on insurance provisions and regulation along with gambling millionaires living in Gibraltar who the EU prevents setting up certain online ventures. They're also usually in the 50+ age range who have had their visa free holidays and studied abroad on capped tuition fees. New leaflets arriving tomorrow going to go door to door getting those registered labour voters informed on it.

 

Sidenote: Not sure if any Corbyn fans on here but personal experience in Notts his army Momentum I haven't seen them once it's just anecdotal but if he really wanted the win he'd have sent them out everywhere like he did at the local elections in May.

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For me personally I am voting to stay. Both campaigns have been very negative and poor in selling the ideas of both. Its clear the EU needs reforming and I think it would benefit us if we are involved in that. My fear with voting out is the jump into the unknown and partly through ignorance and part selfishness the EU hasnt really had a significant impact in a negative way on me so for me it seems like a safer bet to remain.

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