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Yep SA gave us a good kicking literally, far and away the better team. England did not have a clue how to deal with them

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Anybody just heard a fighter jet over eaglescliffe area?

Edited by BoroJake

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17 minutes ago, BoroJake said:

Anybody just heard a fighter jet over eaglescliffe area?

Yeah, the RAF have been scrambled to investigate an unidentified aircraft entering UK airspace.  Don't worry though, it turns out it was just one of Fletcher's shots returning to Earth. 

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On 12/12/2019 at 8:14 AM, BearSmog said:

Happy Polling Day!! 

voting mark ruffalo GIF by Election 2016

Looks like we're getting Brexit done...after we get breakfast done...

Labour got a battering that made our game against Leeds look close.

 

Conservatives got their biggest majority for over 30 years, despite Boris "Marmite" Johnson heading their campaign. 😮

 

Guess it shows that even promising the Earth won't help, if people don't like or trust you.

Edited by AnglianRed

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5 hours ago, AnglianRed said:

Looks like we're getting Brexit done...after we get breakfast done...

Labour got a battering that made our game against Leeds look close.

 

Conservatives got their biggest majority for over 30 years, despite Boris "Marmite" Johnson heading their campaign. 😮

 

Guess it shows that even promising the Earth won't help, if people don't like or trust you.

More people can tolerate Boris than Corbyn, it turns out.

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1 hour ago, Brunners said:

More people can tolerate Boris than Corbyn, it turns out.

It seems it was more Brexit up in super Leave seats like up here where Tories gains weren't so high but Brexit Party took huge percentages of Labour seats, the lower swings seemed to be in Remain seats but the swing is still substantial enough to show basically enough people didn't like/trust/want Corbyn.

We could go on forever about the kind of tactics used in the election by the Tories (the staggering 88% of misleading information or lies built into their political advertising vs. 0% of Labour's, I was shocked by both those numbers) but I said before the election even came to pass that if Corbyn can't win this election, he can't win any. If the Labour party is to get back into power in the next 10 years, it has to go more centre and I'm honestly not sure it will given the members are very clearly not thinking that way, neither are Momentum.

I quite liked him so I'm disappointed but I think Corbyn, McDonnell and the like have completely missed the point if they think this was just a Brexit election as they're saying afterwards. I actually thought their Brexit policy made a lot of sense but maybe I'm just a bit biased as I wanted to Remain via public mandate. To be fair to the electorate, I don't think that would have happened either based on last night's results.

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I have a kind of unique perspective/retrospective look now Corbyn's gone might interest people but it's not that me or people like me were out there 'enabling' Corbyn or sabotaging him we just didn't like how far left he was so we sat out or stopped paying membership and left we understood why he was chosen in '15 we just knew how it'd end in a bloodbath in the end he's shed more blood with his own MPs over the years than any internal party force dealt him.

I actually haven't pulled a lever for Labour (Or anyone except local ind) since 2015 despite being a paid up member since 2013, besides working with Labour IN in 2016 i haven't canvassed for a candidate the Brexit stuff the Corbyn stuff I grieved all that stuff years ago you knew Corbyn would end like this and you knew when Cameron put a treaty to referenda the result would be however marginal enacted so moving forward I kind of accepted the realities of the 2 things years ago we'll leave the EU and Corbyn will somehow cling on until he's lost 100 year Labour seats what's also a reality for Labour is without the reliable 40 Scottish seats they used to lockdown the path to a Labour majority is painfully narrow it requires a Wales lockdown, a City lockdown and then find 30 seats in the South East/West I mean threading that needle is nye on impossible.

Looking at the Labour benches I have the same feeling I had in 2010 and 2015 the leadership options are ridiculously weak no one really inspiring me but if you're left of centre they're the only vehicle to enact change so you're pretty stuck the Lib Dems are fundamentally unserious Corbyn took his hard turn left I had a thought last night that for all his lies, tricks and character flaws I probably agree with Johnson on more policies than Corbyn it's a bizarre feeling. I don't think the membership is as left wing as often characterised I think most should simply want a winner I don't think it'll be too controversial reaffirming NATO, Trident commitments and MOD spending for the next leader to do if the next vote early next year is full of fierce protest and 'momentum' type Trident arguments then it's lost and I'll stop the monthly debit.

You sort of sat by since Corbyn steamrolled Cooper, Burnham, Kendall, Eagle in 2015 and later Smith seeing it coming I'm not sure who's next for us if it's my type (Blairites) turn or soft left get a crack again the reality is any Labour leader is going to struggle unless they get Scotland back an England only Labour party getting 320 seats in the next 20 years strikes me as very unlikely. Anyway I'm not sure what way Boris will govern he's probably going to govern on the left of the Tories he doesn't seem keen on deficit reduction so there'll probably be no austerity and his mini Farage's at the ERG have less power than before in swaying Brexit policy I think we'll all be fine the next 5 years will probably be better than the last 5 Britain rolls on, Labour rolls on and in the end progress isn't created and ended at the ballot box .

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That is one of the positives people keep saying; Johnson without having to pander to hard Brexiteers might be a softer, more centrist Johnson. I mean, I am also kind of sat here thinking at least with a majority government in charge things won't be stop and start and if they are going to try and keep the seats they've won up here in Labour heartlands, then he is going to have to do more for the less privileged in our society than I would ever trust him to. But these are his seats to lose now.

I just worry what his version of Brexit means for the cost of keeping the NHS going. We're already not putting enough in to deal with the aging population, if as you'd suspect that drugs and patents are on the table in a US trade deal, the cost is going to go up even more. So much more that funding it is going to require taxing more, something they are fundamentally against. My sincerest worry is that the NHS is being dragged through being underfunded, against the growing demand it has, long enough that the people change their mind about it. I've only heard just recently from family about the state of James Cook in a given situation and I'm sitting there thinking maybe the conversation is changing. People keep saying to me "Selling off the NHS is political suicide", which it is unless it's what the people themselves feel is the best course of action.

Edited by wilsoncgp

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2 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

That is one of the positives people keep saying; Johnson without having to pander to hard Brexiteers might be a softer, more centrist Johnson. I mean, I am also kind of sat here thinking at least with a majority government in charge things won't be stop and start and if they are going to try and keep the seats they've won up here in Labour heartlands, then he is going to have to do more for the less privileged in our society than I would ever trust him to. But these are his seats to lose now.

I just worry what his version of Brexit means for the cost of keeping the NHS going. We're already not putting enough in to deal with the aging population, if as you'd suspect that drugs and patents are on the table in a US trade deal, the cost is going to go up even more. So much more that funding it is going to require taxing more, something they are fundamentally against. My sincerest worry is that the NHS is being dragged through being underfunded, against the growing demand it has, long enough that the people change their mind about it. I've only heard just recently from family about the state of James Cook in a given situation and I'm sitting there thinking maybe the conversation is changing. People keep saying to me "Selling off the NHS is political suicide", which it is unless it's what the people themselves feel is the best course of action.

I mean, I know it's pretty difficult to trust any politician, especially Johnson, but the NHS and improving it was like the first key point (after Brexit obviously) that he talked about, so fingers crossed he actually legitimately sticks to what he said in his speech, because I didn't disagree with any of it.

Now I suppose we just have to wait and see..

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3 minutes ago, Brunners said:

I mean, I know it's pretty difficult to trust any politician, especially Johnson, but the NHS and improving it was like the first key point (after Brexit obviously) that he talked about, so fingers crossed he actually legitimately sticks to what he said in his speech, because I didn't disagree with any of it.

Now I suppose we just have to wait and see..

Not to prolong the point for too long as last night exhausted me so much so that I want to frankly rid politics and politicians from the system for a couple of years, right now... 😂 but the proposed funding for the NHS doesn't stack up. Admittedly, contrary to what some on the left say, I'm pretty sure the Tories recently have been putting more in even in real terms and that's all well and good... but the NHS is becoming more expensive due to the ageing population without even considering the strain that the level of funding is putting on workers, especially with little to no financial reward from it.

It's one of the best things about our country and for it to remain that way, we have to fund it more than we ever have. I'd frankly throw a lot of the nationalisation policies in the bin if it meant we just gave the NHS the money it needed to keep being great. If as I suspect, we do enter into a trade deal with the US with anything to do with health on the table, that number will rise even more. Tories are more likely to make tax cuts than ask for more tax to pay for anything so by that measure, the lowest rungs on the societal ladder of our country will fall off first. The NHS, mental health, social care, etc. there's not enough going in to solve these problems. Labour's spending plans were through the roof but the Tories are barely spending anything at all based on their plans.

I was listening to Mark Francois on LBC the other week talking to a fella with a wife and 2 kids who looks after both his now disabled parents as a carer so their only income is his carer's allowance and his wife's job, £14k for looking after children with special needs, something like £18k overall? He asks Francois what the Tories will do for him and the best he can come up with is that over time, he'll be able to keep more of his money from tax. I sincerely worry for people like that who contribute so much in a very small, localised circle getting little support from this government. It genuinely makes me sad that people who can't do anything but put a brave face on every day and just get by get nothing in return for it.

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17 hours ago, Brunners said:

More people can tolerate Boris than Corbyn, it turns out.

It seems that anti-Semitism debacle really put a lot of people off, plus his alleged previous links to the IRA (or Republicans of some sort) and support of Palestinian militants. Not to mention his refusal to get off the fence on Brexit. Logically I thought that was a smart move, but it seems voters wanted him to take stance...and also didn't want a second referendum.

So he not only lost a lot of Remainer support, but also Leavers in many Northern constituencies.

I'm guessing more than a few were also put off by his "Back to the Seventies" manifesto, of nationalisation and tax & spend. According to some stuff I heard, there is no way he could have afforded all that , just by upping taxes on the richest (top 5%).

I think we are by and large quite cynical as a country...if something sounds too good to be true, we get suspicious.

 

I was pleased to see Boris give a mention to the tactical voters who helped him get over the line and appreciate he might not get their vote again. 

But now the real hard work starts. I'm guessing (hoping) getting the Withdrawal Agreement through Parliament and signed off by the EU ought to be a formality. But getting a new trade deal in place by the end of January could be tricky. If Johnson is happy with something that keeps us closely aligned with the EU it should be possible, but if not...negotiations could drag on a while.

I was encouraged by the Tories' emphasis on trade, education and public services (particularly the NHS). Still a lot to deliver on, even though their aims are modest, compared to what Labour promised.

Still, Boris has managed to surprise us a few times so far. Maybe he'll continue to...

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11 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

Not to prolong the point for too long as last night exhausted me so much so that I want to frankly rid politics and politicians from the system for a couple of years, right now... 😂 but the proposed funding for the NHS doesn't stack up. Admittedly, contrary to what some on the left say, I'm pretty sure the Tories recently have been putting more in even in real terms and that's all well and good... but the NHS is becoming more expensive due to the ageing population without even considering the strain that the level of funding is putting on workers, especially with little to no financial reward from it.

Well the NHS has been a recurring bugbear of pretty much every government over the last 20-plus years.

Its such a leviathan of an organisation, faced with ever-increasing demands and there is nearly always a crisis of some sort...access to GPs, ambulance response times, cost / availability of drugs, operation waiting times, bed shortages, staffing shortages, to name just a few.

While I'm quite happy to pay a bit more in income tax, National Insurance or whatever, I just don't think the current system is sustainable in the long term (especially with the aforementioned growing & ageing population). You can't just keep throwing ever increasing amounts of money at it. It already accounts for around 20% of all government spending.

The NHS was founded on a post-war model, when the population (hence demand) was far lower, wages and costs of providing services were comparatively lower.

I genuinely think that at some point in the not-too-distant future, a massive overhaul will need to happen. Both to speed up & simplify the whole process from requiring treatment, to receiving it, as well as ensuring we have adequate staff & facilities.

I'm thinking some additional taxation may have to be brought in. Or perhaps hospitals and surgeries can start being sponsored by drug companies and we'll have to get used to seeing GSK and Wellcome posters both outside and inside. Maybe they can start selling ad space on CT scanners, so that they end up looking like F1 cars?

 

Anyway, after all that waffling, I think what I wanted to say is that I'll settle for some minor improvements, rather than expecting any radical changes.

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