Has the academy production line broke down?

[ladyspite 385]

People seem to miss the point (as usual)

 

The point was not that the youngsters should play 90 minutes football instead of our first 11 players. The point is that our youths should fill the spots that opens up when first 11 players+ reserves are injured or banned. Instead of loaning in players as fringe players. A player on loan should not been brought in only to cover space thats a wasted loan in my book, our youths are good enough to fill that void, Ia m certain of that. Karanka is not. But he is the manager I am not.

[OldManGravz 1,350]

Had this exact same argument before the Burnley game with a number of different posters trying to make the point for chapman to star over de Pena  and I was made to look like a fool, Powlay.

 

The basic line was "if they are good enough they will play". I too was and still am frustrated at the words AK used and do dear their opportunities.

 

I also don't agree with the if they are good enough to they will play because let's face it

 

HUSBAND is a far greater left back than AMORIEBETTA. Was loaned out and AMORIEBETTA played.

 

True but Friend is the main LB and Husband has got more game time on loan than Nando got filling in for Friend

 

BASED ON REPORTS CHAPMAN is much better than DE PENA. Loaned out while de Pena gets weekly critism.

 

Chapman looks good but he's playing against other youth opposition, give him a chance on loan in a league to see what he can do. It's not like De Pena is starting week in, week out either.. is it?

 

REACH is our smashing it on loan while nobody can hold down that left wing spot.

 

Reach was given an opportunity last season, and got quite a bit of stick some games. Karanka obviously thinks we have bought better in the summer. Who would he have got in the starting XI on Saturday over?

 

MORRIS I agree has played more competitive football for us than ZUCCULINI did for city. Basically replacing our OWN prospect for one of CITIES prospects with less first team experience.

 

Zuculini has a lot more first team experience than Morris, just because it hasn't been for City doesn't mean it doesn't count. Morris hasn't ever come away from a loan at a lower league club with glowing reports that I can remember either

 

So "if they are good enough they will play" simply isn't true.

[ladyspite 385]

And besides I just won CL with Boro on FM with Cook as captain and the creative force in midfield ;)

[ham_chop 36]

Powlay - as someone who knows our young players as well as you do - would you say chapman could slot in the first team now? And by that i mean the squad as a whole not the starting 11

 

Thought Maloney stood out in pre-season and hoped he would have kicked on a bit by now

[LukeR 44]

HUSBAND is a far greater left back than AMORIEBETTA. Was loaned out and AMORIEBETTA played.

 

Husband isn't a youth player, so you can't really use that argument as a stick to beat Karanka with.

 

BASED ON REPORTS CHAPMAN is much better than DE PENA. Loaned out while de Pena gets weekly critism.

 

"Based on reports" what are the reports? Because Chapman may well be a better footballer, but at the moment Chapman hasn't played a first team match in his career. In my opinion loaning him out so he can get some first team experience is better than sitting on the bench like De Pena is.

 

REACH is our smashing it on loan while nobody can hold down that left wing spot.

 

Reach is playing well at Preston because he's been allowed to flourish. He wouldn't get half the gametime here. Also when you say 'nobody can hold down that left wing spot', what do you mean? Because it's practically guaranteed to be either Downing or Adomah, as it has been all season.

 

MORRIS I agree has played more competitive football for us than ZUCCULINI did for city. Basically replacing our OWN prospect for one of CITIES prospects with less first team experience.

 

It's true, Morris has played more competitive football for us than Zuculini has for City (albeit according to Wikipedia only by 2 games). But you're ignoring the other 100+ matches he's played for other clubs at a higher or similar level to Boro. Morris has played 16 competitive games in his career - most of which are at League 1 or League 2 standard. Zuculini has played over 100 first team games, and is 3 years Morris' senior. Personally I'd rather have the more experienced player as cover.

 

So "if they are good enough they will play" simply isn't true.

 

It is. If it wasn't how do you explain Dael Fry playing? Or Ben Gibson? Or Adam Reach last season? Karanka's given game time to Fewster before he was loaned out as well, but you aren't calling for him back in the first team. Cherry picking arguments is all well and good, but it's just as easily argued that Karanka does follow that philosophy if you look at the players you've conveniently ignored.

[LukeR 44]

OldManGravz beat you me to it, I reckon it's because I spent 10 minutes messing about trying to quote it on my phone :P

[OldManGravz 1,350]

OldManGravz beat you me to it, I reckon it's because I spent 10 minutes messing about trying to quote it on my phone :P

 

I'll be honest, I was going to do it your way but I can never figure out how to split a quote up so I just left it as I did haha

[GwenStuani 4]

HUSBAND is a far greater left back than AMORIEBETTA. Was loaned out and AMORIEBETTA played.

 

Husband isn't a youth player, so you can't really use that argument as a stick to beat Karanka with.

 

BASED ON REPORTS CHAPMAN is much better than DE PENA. Loaned out while de Pena gets weekly critism.

 

"Based on reports" what are the reports? Because Chapman may well be a better footballer, but at the moment Chapman hasn't played a first team match in his career. In my opinion loaning him out so he can get some first team experience is better than sitting on the bench like De Pena is.

 

REACH is our smashing it on loan while nobody can hold down that left wing spot.

 

Reach is playing well at Preston because he's been allowed to flourish. He wouldn't get half the gametime here. Also when you say 'nobody can hold down that left wing spot', what do you mean? Because it's practically guaranteed to be either Downing or Adomah, as it has been all season.

 

MORRIS I agree has played more competitive football for us than ZUCCULINI did for city. Basically replacing our OWN prospect for one of CITIES prospects with less first team experience.

 

It's true, Morris has played more competitive football for us than Zuculini has for City (albeit according to Wikipedia only by 2 games). But you're ignoring the other 100+ matches he's played for other clubs at a higher or similar level to Boro. Morris has played 16 competitive games in his career - most of which are at League 1 or League 2 standard. Zuculini has played over 100 first team games, and is 3 years Morris' senior. Personally I'd rather have the more experienced player as cover.

 

So "if they are good enough they will play" simply isn't true.

 

It is. If it wasn't how do you explain Dael Fry playing? Or Ben Gibson? Or Adam Reach last season? Karanka's given game time to Fewster before he was loaned out as well, but you aren't calling for him back in the first team. Cherry picking arguments is all well and good, but it's just as easily argued that Karanka does follow that philosophy if you look at the players you've conveniently ignored.

 

 

Husband like it or not he's one of our own and was replaced by someone who is not of our our own and of poorer quality. Yes, it counts.

 

ZUCCULINI, what leagues have these games been in? Morris has done it England. In karankas system and has captained his country at every youth level. He is custom built for us.

 

How do I explain dael fry? Oh I don't know, how about its clear he's a last resort? De laet obviously has never come here to play CB and kalas ha sheen God awful. Gibson has been out as has Ayala and mistake ridden amoribietta has returned to Fulham. IMO if kalas improved even slightly to match Frys performances fry would be dropped.

 

Further to fry which I find most confusing, he's been compared to CBs at Madrid and Bilbao. That alone tells me he is good enough L. Bet he won't play another game this season if Ayala and gibbo are available?

 

Regarding chapman. "What reports" oh I don't know, maybe Powlay? Our youth team resident. Every single one of our gazette reporters. Coaches, players, ex coaches, our captain?. Italian media calling him a phenomenon?

 

I take it none of those count for anything huh?

 

Downing or adomah at left wing? Don't make me laugh. Downing gets in by default so we don't *** away £25,000 a week on a bench player. Adomah? Reach is more effective at left wing than adomah. And de Pena? Need I say more?

[Will 2,958]

HUSBAND is a far greater left back than AMORIEBETTA. Was loaned out and AMORIEBETTA played.

 

Husband isn't a youth player, so you can't really use that argument as a stick to beat Karanka with.

 

BASED ON REPORTS CHAPMAN is much better than DE PENA. Loaned out while de Pena gets weekly critism.

 

"Based on reports" what are the reports? Because Chapman may well be a better footballer, but at the moment Chapman hasn't played a first team match in his career. In my opinion loaning him out so he can get some first team experience is better than sitting on the bench like De Pena is.

 

REACH is our smashing it on loan while nobody can hold down that left wing spot.

 

Reach is playing well at Preston because he's been allowed to flourish. He wouldn't get half the gametime here. Also when you say 'nobody can hold down that left wing spot', what do you mean? Because it's practically guaranteed to be either Downing or Adomah, as it has been all season.

 

MORRIS I agree has played more competitive football for us than ZUCCULINI did for city. Basically replacing our OWN prospect for one of CITIES prospects with less first team experience.

 

It's true, Morris has played more competitive football for us than Zuculini has for City (albeit according to Wikipedia only by 2 games). But you're ignoring the other 100+ matches he's played for other clubs at a higher or similar level to Boro. Morris has played 16 competitive games in his career - most of which are at League 1 or League 2 standard. Zuculini has played over 100 first team games, and is 3 years Morris' senior. Personally I'd rather have the more experienced player as cover.

 

So "if they are good enough they will play" simply isn't true.

 

It is. If it wasn't how do you explain Dael Fry playing? Or Ben Gibson? Or Adam Reach last season? Karanka's given game time to Fewster before he was loaned out as well, but you aren't calling for him back in the first team. Cherry picking arguments is all well and good, but it's just as easily argued that Karanka does follow that philosophy if you look at the players you've conveniently ignored.

 

 

Husband like it or not he's one of our own and was replaced by someone who is not of our our own and of poorer quality. Yes, it counts.

 

No he isn't one of our own, and he didn't come through our academy so I'd say that isn't relevant at all.

 

ZUCCULINI, what leagues have these games been in? Morris has done it England. In karankas system and has captained his country at every youth level. He is custom built for us.

 

Morris hasn't 'done it' in England, he's been out on a few loans now and failed to impress. He also hasn't 'done it' in Karanka's system, that's just untrue.

 

How do I explain dael fry? Oh I don't know, how about its clear he's a last resort? De laet obviously has never come here to play CB and kalas ha sheen God awful. Gibson has been out as has Ayala and mistake ridden amoribietta has returned to Fulham. IMO if kalas improved even slightly to match Frys performances fry would be dropped.

 

Fry started over Kalas against Leeds, clearly he isn't a last resort. Kalas hasn't been God awful, what a ridiculous thing to say, maybe not the standard of our usual starting two.

 

Further to fry which I find most confusing, he's been compared to CBs at Madrid and Bilbao. That alone tells me he is good enough L. Bet he won't play another game this season if Ayala and gibbo are available?

 

Fry has been compared, by Karanka (bit of irony you now taking his word as gospel) to Koke and Thiago, neither of whom are CB's, they are both attacking midfielders. He was compared to them for his maturity. What a stupid and ridiculous statement at the end, 'if the best centre back pairing in the league is fit for the rest of the season our 18 year old CB won't play' of course he bloody won't!

 

Regarding chapman. "What reports" oh I don't know, maybe Powlay? Our youth team resident. Every single one of our gazette reporters. Coaches, players, ex coaches, our captain?. Italian media calling him a phenomenon?

 

And yet none of those people see him day in day out at training, see how he is when training with the senior team. Who does get to see this? Karanka and his coaching team. Grant said that Chapman was, in his opinion, the best player we have coming through, that's great but it doesn't say he should be in the first team.

 

I take it none of those count for anything huh?

 

No, just a bunch of crazy ramblings

 

Downing or adomah at left wing? Don't make me laugh. Downing gets in by default so we don't *** away £25,000 a week on a bench player. Adomah? Reach is more effective at left wing than adomah. And de Pena? Need I say more?

Who would you rather have there? Reach, who was widely criticised last season by our fans and was made to be a scapegoat? Chapman, who is completely untested at ANY level of proffesional football?

["KM" 1,656]

Does Karanka trust in our youths? Does he trust those who have progressed through the academy?

 

Dael Fry. Thread closed.

[Tom 2,492]

 

Husband like it or not he's one of our own and was replaced by someone who is not of our our own and of poorer quality. Yes, it counts.

 

ZUCCULINI, what leagues have these games been in? Morris has done it England. In karankas system and has captained his country at every youth level. He is custom built for us.

 

How do I explain dael fry? Oh I don't know, how about its clear he's a last resort? De laet obviously has never come here to play CB and kalas ha sheen God awful. Gibson has been out as has Ayala and mistake ridden amoribietta has returned to Fulham. IMO if kalas improved even slightly to match Frys performances fry would be dropped.

 

Further to fry which I find most confusing, he's been compared to CBs at Madrid and Bilbao. That alone tells me he is good enough L. Bet he won't play another game this season if Ayala and gibbo are available?

 

Regarding chapman. "What reports" oh I don't know, maybe Powlay? Our youth team resident. Every single one of our gazette reporters. Coaches, players, ex coaches, our captain?. Italian media calling him a phenomenon?

 

I take it none of those count for anything huh?

 

Downing or adomah at left wing? Don't make me laugh. Downing gets in by default so we don't *** away £25,000 a week on a bench player. Adomah? Reach is more effective at left wing than adomah. And de Pena? Need I say more?

 

1. You can't claim to know what's going on in Karanka's head. Amorebieta was here as a CB primarily, who covered LB a couple of times, so I think it's safe to assume de Laet (his replacement) was brought in for similar cover. Kalas, while struggling to hit his form from last season, hasn't been 'god-awful' by any stretch.

 

2. You might be right. If the two first choice centre backs from the best defence in the league are fit, they will probably start every game. That isn't a slight on Fry. Ayala and Gibbo's record is phenomenal.

 

3. I've said this a few times. Youth development is not Karanka's remit. He isn't the club manager, he's the head coach for the first team. Yes, he has a say on who comes in, but he will discuss Chapman, Fry and all the others with Parnaby, Liddle, Jenkins, and a handful of others. They have the experience to be able to make decisions on what's best for the young players (most of whom they will have known since they were 10 or 11). In Chapman's case this is to go to League 1 on loan. It's unlikely that their decision will be swayed by some hyberbolic journalism.  

 

4. Rhodes, Stuani and Nugent being on the bench in the last fortnight suggests that we have no problem dropping high earners.

[GwenStuani 4]

Does Karanka trust in our youths? Does he trust those who have progressed through the academy?

 

Dael Fry. Thread closed.

 

What an ridiculous post.

 

if all our first team players who are able to play striker get a sickness bug rendering them all unplayable and the emergency loan window is closed, we throw in a youth player. Does that show AK trusts him? Nope

[Prowler 197]

***ing hell, this thread :D

[Will 2,958]

Does Karanka trust in our youths? Does he trust those who have progressed through the academy?

 

Dael Fry. Thread closed.

 

What an ridiculous post.

 

if all our first team players who are able to play striker get a sickness bug rendering them all unplayable and the emergency loan window is closed, we throw in a youth player. Does that show AK trusts him? Nope

 

Those weren't the circumstances with Fry getting in the team, stop making things up.

[LukeR 44]

Husband like it or not he's one of our own and was replaced by someone who is not of our our own and of poorer quality. Yes, it counts.

 

I agree, Husband is a better left back. But who's more versatile? Who would do a better job at centre back?

 

ZUCCULINI, what leagues have these games been in? Morris has done it England. In karankas system and has captained his country at every youth level. He is custom built for us.

 

Morris has played 16 career games, and all but 2 of those games have been League 1 standard or lower. Zuculini conversely had played in the best league in the world La Liga. Comparing the two based on the countries in which they've played alone is the equivalent of saying you'd rather have Curtis Main than Stuani because Main is 'custom built for us', and he's done it in England.

 

How do I explain dael fry? Oh I don't know, how about its clear he's a last resort? De laet obviously has never come here to play CB and kalas ha sheen God awful. Gibson has been out as has Ayala and mistake ridden amoribietta has returned to Fulham. IMO if kalas improved even slightly to match Frys performances fry would be dropped.

 

How is he a last resort? Take Fry's debut, the Preston game for example. He replaced the injured Ben Gibson. Kalas could have filled in at centre back which he has done in the past, as could Friend. Stephens was on the bench that game, but Karanka chose to play one of our own over a loanee. That's because he picks players on merit. "He'll play them if they're good enough"- in this case, Fry is.

 

Further to fry which I find most confusing, he's been compared to CBs at Madrid and Bilbao. That alone tells me he is good enough L. Bet he won't play another game this season if Ayala and gibbo are available?

 

I must confess, I haven't seen anything about him being compared to Madrid and Bilbao centre backs. I'd be interested if you could send a link to where.

As for him not playing another game if Gibson and Ayala are fit, rightly so. Fry is a very good centre back (even more so when his age is taken into account). But Ayala and Gibson is the best pairing in the league, I wouldn't expect him to push one of them out. Their win record when they're on the pitch together is nothing short of amazing.

 

Regarding chapman. "What reports" oh I don't know, maybe Powlay? Our youth team resident. Every single one of our gazette reporters. Coaches, players, ex coaches, our captain?. Italian media calling him a phenomenon?

 

I've read the reports, and none of them say that he is a better player than De Pena. I'm a big fan of Chapman, but my argument is in three stages. Firstly, Chapman hasn't played a first team game at any level in his career. Whilst I concede that is down to Karanka not playing him, I'd argue that it's Karanka's judgement about Chapman's current ability, rather than a distrust of youth players in general. I think Chapman probably should have started against Burnley in the cup, but that is based on my limited experience watching him. AK watches him everyday in training.

Secondly, do you honestly think that 10/15 minute cameos at Boro every few games would be more beneficial to his career in the long run than substancial playing time for a few months at Barnsley?

Finally, whilst it may seem like Chapman is ready for 1st team football because he is head and shoulders above the rest of the youth league, it should be pointed out that Ledesma was outstanding at the same level.

 

Downing or adomah at left wing? Don't make me laugh. Downing gets in by default so we don't *** away £25,000 a week on a bench player. Adomah? Reach is more effective at left wing than adomah. And de Pena? Need I say more?

 

Last season (in Karanka's system) Reach played 46 games, scoring three and getting seven assists. I.e. Contributing to ten goals.

So far this season, Downing has played 35, scored three, and assisted five. Equating to eight goals (which isn't good enough for a player of his quality), so based on stats alone they're very similar in terms of goals created. So there is an argument for Reach over Downing.

Adomah on the other hand, this season -where he has primarily played on the left- in 32 games he has 6 goals, and 6 assists. That puts to bed your argument of Reach being more effective than Adomah. Also, please do say more about De Pena. I don't know what point you're making.