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Has the academy production line broke down?

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There hasn't really been a production line has there? Just been one average player who's decided to come back and a nonce?

 

Cattermole? Morrison? Brunt? (does he count?) Wheater? Gibson? Fry? I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

 

True but I wouldn't say they're as good as the Downing or Johnson. Most have been mid/low tier premier league players apart from those.

 

Explain to me why that's a bad thing.

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There hasn't really been a production line has there? Just been one average player who's decided to come back and a nonce?

 

I think the best way to respond to this is to offer up a quote from someone more intelligent than I.

 

it's good to remember that the correct way to judge a club's (or a nation's) youth development isn't by the number of superstars (or internationals) produced, it's by the number of professionals it churns out. You can't legislate for extreme talent. Wayne Rooney came through the ranks at Everton, he could have done so at Birmingham, Millwall or even Raith Rovers and, odds are, he would still have made it. Same goes for Rio Ferdinand or Frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard. Where you judge the quality of a youth set-up is in the second or third tier players. How many Gavin McCanns or Phil Bardsleys or Andy O'Briens does it produce? The gap in natural talent between these guys and their colleagues in League One isn't that great: the difference lies in their footballing education. And that's what youth development is about. 

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There hasn't really been a production line has there? Just been one average player who's decided to come back and a nonce?

 

Cattermole? Morrison? Brunt? (does he count?) Wheater? Gibson? Fry? I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

 

True but I wouldn't say they're as good as the Downing or Johnson. Most have been mid/low tier premier league players apart from those.

 

Explain to me why that's a bad thing.

 

Exactly, it's not like there's an abundance of top English players.

 

Stewart Downing was a top player for us, Aston Villa and had a good spell at West Ham too. Both him and Johnson racked up a good amount of England caps.

 

To answer the OP's question, I don't think it has stalled. I think we've got as good a crop of youngsters as we've ever had and it's brilliant to see our academy products making starting 11s up and down the country. Correct me if I'm wrong or missed one or two, but I think Fewster, Ripley, Chapman (although it's early days), Reach and Jackson are all playing a fair role at their respective loan clubs this season.

 

Obviously at Boro we have Gibson who has been excellent all the way throughout the season and Fry who is giving a very good account of himself and that's without taking his age and lack of experience into the equation.

 

Personally I'd have liked to have held onto Reach. When we loaned him out he'd just had an excellent performance against Wednesday where he tore them open. Reading through the Preston forum they love him and he's thriving there in any position he's played.

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There hasn't really been a production line has there? Just been one average player who's decided to come back and a nonce?

 

I think the best way to respond to this is to offer up a quote from someone more intelligent than I.

 

it's good to remember that the correct way to judge a club's (or a nation's) youth development isn't by the number of superstars (or internationals) produced, it's by the number of professionals it churns out. You can't legislate for extreme talent. Wayne Rooney came through the ranks at Everton, he could have done so at Birmingham, Millwall or even Raith Rovers and, odds are, he would still have made it. Same goes for Rio Ferdinand or Frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard. Where you judge the quality of a youth set-up is in the second or third tier players. How many Gavin McCanns or Phil Bardsleys or Andy O'Briens does it produce? The gap in natural talent between these guys and their colleagues in League One isn't that great: the difference lies in their footballing education. And that's what youth development is about. 

 

 

Powlay, with all the hype about Chapman do you think he could be our next Premier League quality player, and what level do you think his talent can take him to?

 

I think Ben Gibson is definitely a player we've produced who could easily make the cut in the Prem.

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Thing is its not just about talent, its about opportunity, its about luck, its about injuries.

 

Chapman is a very very special young man. One of the best kids ive seen at this level ever. But he has got years ahead of him, growth, women, beer, many many things that can take him off the path that could lead him to the top. So i wont add to the pressure and say anything on how good he COULD be.

 

How good is he now? I'd have him on the bench for the first team instead of De Pena as he can change a game.

 

Regarding Gibson, ive watched him at U18 level, watched his reserve debut at Hartlepool. Watched a lot of him over the years on loan also and now for the Boro and he is learning, learning, learning.

 

I think we will see him in the premier league sooner or later. That more than likely will be with Boro though.

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A bloke I work with is a Barnsley season ticket holder and I've asked him to keep an eye on Chapman.

 

So far he is impressed with him, surging runs, hit the post and had a penalty shout apparently.

 

Exciting stuff if, as Powlay said, he stays on the correct path.

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Thing is its not just about talent, its about opportunity, its about luck, its about injuries.

 

Chapman is a very very special young man. One of the best kids ive seen at this level ever. But he has got years ahead of him, growth, women, beer, many many things that can take him off the path that could lead him to the top. So i wont add to the pressure and say anything on how good he COULD be.

 

How good is he now? I'd have him on the bench for the first team instead of De Pena as he can change a game.

 

Regarding Gibson, ive watched him at U18 level, watched his reserve debut at Hartlepool. Watched a lot of him over the years on loan also and now for the Boro and he is learning, learning, learning.

 

I think we will see him in the premier league sooner or later. That more than likely will be with Boro though.

just picking your brain ...well beliefs really, Powlay.

regarding your point about having him on the bench rather than De Pena...which incidentally i would love to have seen ...........if we did  show that trust and belief in the lad ,  at this time  do you think that would perhaps give him extra impetus to steer clear of those things you listed that could hinder him in the coming years as opposed to letting small doubts enter his mind as to wether he will ever be given a big chance ..i suppose he is fast approaching a crucial piece of timing as to WHEN not if he should be moved up a level or two.

i am genuinely excited with this lad and pray he doesnt fade away through lack of opportunity like Josh Walker and Cameron Park to name a couple.

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There hasn't really been a production line has there? Just been one average player who's decided to come back and a nonce?

 

Cattermole? Morrison? Brunt? (does he count?) Wheater? Gibson? Fry? I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

 

True but I wouldn't say they're as good as the Downing or Johnson. Most have been mid/low tier premier league players apart from those.

 

Explain to me why that's a bad thing.

 

To answer the OP's question, I don't think it has stalled. I think we've got as good a crop of youngsters as we've ever had and it's brilliant to see our academy products making starting 11s up and down the country. Correct me if I'm wrong or missed one or two, but I think Fewster, Ripley, Chapman (although it's early days), Reach and Jackson are all playing a fair role at their respective loan clubs this season.

 

 

I may have misinterpreted the OP but i assumed he meant the pathway to the first team does not seem to be there any more. hence the production line is broken. I agree with you that i think we're churning out a similar standard (if not ) better type of player than the last ten years. They just aren't getting their chance as frequently as they used too.

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Thing is its not just about talent, its about opportunity, its about luck, its about injuries.

 

Chapman is a very very special young man. One of the best kids ive seen at this level ever. But he has got years ahead of him, growth, women, beer, many many things that can take him off the path that could lead him to the top. So i wont add to the pressure and say anything on how good he COULD be.

 

How good is he now? I'd have him on the bench for the first team instead of De Pena as he can change a game.

 

Regarding Gibson, ive watched him at U18 level, watched his reserve debut at Hartlepool. Watched a lot of him over the years on loan also and now for the Boro and he is learning, learning, learning.

 

I think we will see him in the premier league sooner or later. That more than likely will be with Boro though.

 

Cheers for that. Yeah I appreciate that there's way too many factors to be able to definitively say whether someone will make it or not, but it's excellent to hear that he's superbly talented at his current level. From the youth champions league as well it sounded like he put in some terrific performances.

 

I've not been watching Gibson anywhere near that long, but have made it to most games home and away in the past few years and even then he's come on in leaps and bounds, most notably for me his decision making on and off the ball.

 

I'd be disappointed if we replaced him if we go up. I think this season he's really nailed down his spot as first choice and deserves the chance to do so again should we get promoted at the end of the season.

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Cattermole? Morrison? Brunt? (does he count?) Wheater? Gibson? Fry? I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

 

True but I wouldn't say they're as good as the Downing or Johnson. Most have been mid/low tier premier league players apart from those.

 

Explain to me why that's a bad thing.

 

To answer the OP's question, I don't think it has stalled. I think we've got as good a crop of youngsters as we've ever had and it's brilliant to see our academy products making starting 11s up and down the country. Correct me if I'm wrong or missed one or two, but I think Fewster, Ripley, Chapman (although it's early days), Reach and Jackson are all playing a fair role at their respective loan clubs this season.

 

 

I may have misinterpreted the OP but i assumed he meant the pathway to the first team does not seem to be there any more. hence the production line is broken. I agree with you that i think we're churning out a similar standard (if not ) better type of player than the last ten years. They just aren't getting their chance as frequently as they used too.

 

Whoops! You're completely right, I was answering the title question.  :D

 

I'd agree there's definitely been fewer first team opportunities for youth post-McClaren. I'm firmly on the fence as to whether or not it's the right call, there's really good arguments to be made for either decision on that one!

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Cattermole? Morrison? Brunt? (does he count?) Wheater? Gibson? Fry? I'm sure there's more I'm missing.

 

True but I wouldn't say they're as good as the Downing or Johnson. Most have been mid/low tier premier league players apart from those.

 

Explain to me why that's a bad thing.

 

To answer the OP's question, I don't think it has stalled. I think we've got as good a crop of youngsters as we've ever had and it's brilliant to see our academy products making starting 11s up and down the country. Correct me if I'm wrong or missed one or two, but I think Fewster, Ripley, Chapman (although it's early days), Reach and Jackson are all playing a fair role at their respective loan clubs this season.

 

 

I may have misinterpreted the OP but i assumed he meant the pathway to the first team does not seem to be there any more. hence the production line is broken. I agree with you that i think we're churning out a similar standard (if not ) better type of player than the last ten years. They just aren't getting their chance as frequently as they used too.

 

Exactly this. Couldn't have put it better myself, although I tried.

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We probably have more youngsters out on loan than we have at any time in the last 10 yrs. wether they make the first team or not the academy is working

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Let's face it apart from Southampton's academy which has produced players of the standard of Walcott, Bale, Oxlaide Chamberlin, Shearer, Le Tissier and the Wallace brothers, (they really don't do defenders) and Man Utd's class of 92 we are probably pretty much the most successful academy over the last few decades.

 

I think it's more difficult to blood kids when they have to play under 21 football rather than the old traditions of playing in the reserves and then getting your chance. Managers tend to have a squad of 25 or so, which doesn't include youngsters. It's more likely that the 25 will be rotated, rather than youths being bought through. In our case, the manager has had a say in signing pretty much all of our squad, they are his players, he's going to use them if he can. In the past, new managers tended to come in and work with the players that were there, rather than turn up at the interview clutching a list of targets that he'd like to sign if he gets the job. It's just far more difficult for a young player to emerge when he's seen as a youth player rather than a reserve.

 

The system may not be to everyone's liking, but the best chance of impressing the boss is to perform well for a loan team.

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We probably have more youngsters out on loan than we have at any time in the last 10 yrs.  wether they make the first team or not the academy is working

 

 

 

But is having them out on loan a sign that the academy is working? What if everyone of those loaned out drop out of professional football?

 

Short term picture doesnt always reflect the longer term one.

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