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Has the academy production line broke down?


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The thing is..we're going for promotion. Why should Karanka risk games by trying out youngsters when he has a plethora of more experienced and already proven options to choose from.

 

As for bringing in outside youth loans to take bench places, again it's an experience thing. When you're chasing promotion I'd rather have Zuculini and his near 100 league games against men (albeit in the Argentine division) rather than an untried and untested player like Cooke, regardless of how good he MIGHT be. 

 

 

 

Zucilini has 30 minutes of English football to his name prior to his loan, De Pena has been given time to acclimatise and played in certain games, but a loan of a player similar is ok?

 

Yes he has played some games before joining city, but he certainly isn't a experienced player who has proven himself, is Stephens a experienced proven player? Less than 50 games all at a lower level than Boro!

 

Kike sola comes in and Karanka said he would wait for the right time to blood him, we have loans coming in not ready to supplement the first team! Kike Sola is the player who joined and went on the bench replacing a young player at Bristol City despite the manager knowing he wouldn't use the new loan signing.

 

What I would say is, have these three loaned players added anything notable to the season? Have they been regulars? Could their minutes have been better used elsewhere? Karanka isn't to risk games blooding youngsters, but he is ok to do so risking loan players?

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Downing, good shout mate :)

 

I wasn't writing them off. I said I thought Powlay was wasting his time and I think he is for the reasons I've given. Actually I do think some people believe that almost every decision Karanka makes is correct and will seek to justify them. I could go through a list of names I would expect to appear on threads if certain things were said but that is just my opinion and I'm allowed it aren't I? It's not like I went person by person telling you all to shut up. I didn't even mention anyone specifically although if Brunners keeps picking on me I might change that :(

 

Everything you've said there is fine but it doesn't really explain the situation with Fry does it and to date he's the only player that has been given an opportunity. As I've already said that doesn't really fit with the general consensus on here, which is kind of ironic wouldn't you say?

 

Re the third bit in bold, it's not whether I like it that matters but it's a way of looking at things that can be used to justify every single decision that is made. Somebody last season decided that Mejias was ready but then it turned out that he wasn't so the initial decision was incorrect. Now I can remember the people on here that were defending that at the time and it's the same people on this thread doing the same thing now and using that basic argument to do it. It's not coincidence.

 

I don't see how there can be any argument to make that Karanka has been good for the academy. That doesn't mean he's been bad either to be clear and I'm not saying he is but I don't think Karanka would give a young player a chance in the first team unless he felt he had to. If Fulham hadn't recalled Amorebieta does anyone on here think that Fry would have played in either the Leeds or Cardiff games? Be honest about it. And if he hadn't and someone had come on and said why can't we just give Fry a go, how many of you would have replied with something along the lines of Karanka obviously doesn't think he's ready etc? Be honest about that as well. In this instance you'd be wrong wouldn't you and so would Karanka if that's what he felt. So if we can be wrong about one player maybe, and I'm well aware it is just a maybe, we could be wrong about others as well?

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Mowbray gave Jones and Morris their first starts and it hasn't particularly pushed their development onto the next level. Park had a few minutes and he's no longer in professional football. Strachan put L.Williams in the team when he was really young and he just got worse and worse. He turned down loans elsewhere as he was pampered and didn't have the right character to develop. The opportunity didn't help any of them so it's not all positives. I'm sure Karanka could easily have gave a few pretty meaningless minutes to youngsters off the bench like Morris, Cooke, Maloney and Chapman to give off a façade that he isn't afraid to play youth players but just because they don't get minutes in our team it doesn't mean the path to the first team isn't there.

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The thing is..we're going for promotion. Why should Karanka risk games by trying out youngsters when he has a plethora of more experienced and already proven options to choose from.

 

As for bringing in outside youth loans to take bench places, again it's an experience thing. When you're chasing promotion I'd rather have Zuculini and his near 100 league games against men (albeit in the Argentine division) rather than an untried and untested player like Cooke, regardless of how good he MIGHT be. 

 

 

 

Zucilini has 30 minutes of English football to his name prior to his loan, De Pena has been given time to acclimatise and played in certain games, but a loan of a player similar is ok?

 

Yes he has played some games before joining city, but he certainly isn't a experienced player who has proven himself, is Stephens a experienced proven player? Less than 50 games all at a lower level than Boro!

 

Kike sola comes in and Karanka said he would wait for the right time to blood him, we have loans coming in not ready to supplement the first team! Kike Sola is the player who joined and went on the bench replacing a young player at Bristol City despite the manager knowing he wouldn't use the new loan signing.

 

What I would say is, have these three loaned players added anything notable to the season? Have they been regulars? Could their minutes have been better used elsewhere? Karanka isn't to risk games blooding youngsters, but he is ok to do so risking loan players?

 

Zucculini & Stephens both have game time against adults, the former in Argentina, the latter in league 1. I'd trust both of them to come in and do a decent job before I'd trust our untested, untried youth players - ESPECIALLY this late into the season when we're going for automatic promotion.

 

Sola is a bit of a weird one, but there are rumours that there's more to that loan than meets the eye so not much we can do about it. Also, he's got years of experience playing in La Liga so while he hasn't shown much in his time here, it's not like he's utter ***.

 

I'd be all for blooding youths if we weren't joint second in the league.

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So a load of salient points are written off just because some of us happen to support the manager's decisions?

 

Two sides to this coin.

 

So a load of salient points are written off just because fry happens to be playing?

 

No, your points were written off by some because you wrapped them up in opinions passed off as fact, such as 'Kalas has been god-awful' and saying that the Italian press had a better idea of how good our young players are than Dave Parnaby and Aitor Karanka.

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So if we have had Chapman, Fry or Maloney on the bench instead of Zucculini and Stephens we wouldent be joint second in the league? Do I understand you correct? Its all due to the big impact of Zuccilini and Stepehens we been this good...

 

I dont agree

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So what do people think of these comments from Karanka:

 

“I thought I had players who wanted to leave,” he continued.

 

 

“I couldn’t use them and those who were playing knew they were going to play because I didn’t have a replacement.

 

“For that reason I couldn’t use the players from the bench, so those who were playing I couldn’t take off if they weren’t performing.

 

He'd rather put people on the bench that he 'couldn't use' rather than call up a youngster to sit on the bench. 

 

Surely a Chapman who might get on is better than a Kike or Fabbrini who won't get on.

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Mowbray gave Jones and Morris their first starts and it hasn't particularly pushed their development onto the next level. Park had a few minutes and he's no longer in professional football. Strachan put L.Williams in the team when he was really young and he just got worse and worse. He turned down loans elsewhere as he was pampered and didn't have the right character to develop. The opportunity didn't help any of them so it's not all positives. I'm sure Karanka could easily have gave a few pretty meaningless minutes to youngsters off the bench like Morris, Cooke, Maloney and Chapman to give off a façade that he isn't afraid to play youth players but just because they don't get minute in our team it doesn't mean the path to the first team isn't there.

 

It's unfair to use Morris in this argument. You say he "hasn't exactly developed into the next level" well I ask you, since Mowbray left, have you even seen him play? Or is it that he's simply been overlooked that you base your argument that he's not good enough?

 

Morris was one of the brightest prospects fbour club and made a very good cup performance that I saw. I haven't seen him since. The others you mentioned were not even half be prospect of Morris so I will allow these to be used.

 

You have to wonder why coaches, players, the manager, Italian and our local media outlets all rate him and were even calling for him to be given his first start against burnley. Something doesn't smell right if karanka doesn't think he's good enough.

 

The reports I have seen for chapman going on loan all point to bar else having lack of squad depth. That doesn't sound to me like he's going there to play many games.

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Zucculini & Stephens both have game time against adults, the former in Argentina, the latter in league 1. I'd trust both of them to come in and do a decent job before I'd trust our untested, untried youth players - ESPECIALLY this late into the season when we're going for automatic promotion.

 

Sola is a bit of a weird one, but there are rumours that there's more to that loan than meets the eye so not much we can do about it. Also, he's got years of experience playing in La Liga so while he hasn't shown much in his time here, it's not like he's utter ***.

 

I'd be all for blooding youths if we weren't joint second in the league.

 

You mean Zucculini's club side gave him a chance in the first team as a youngster?  ;)  16 years old when he made his debut by the looks of it.  Fair play to him!

 

The last bit I don't get mate?  Surely you blood them at any time otherwise when will ever be ideal? Would next season battling against relegation in the Premier League be better if we were to get promoted?  How about next season battling for promotion if we don't? You're almost saying only bring youngsters through when you're mid-table and going nowhere and I don't see that as being practical.

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Zucculini & Stephens both have game time against adults, the former in Argentina, the latter in league 1. I'd trust both of them to come in and do a decent job before I'd trust our untested, untried youth players - ESPECIALLY this late into the season when we're going for automatic promotion.

 

Sola is a bit of a weird one, but there are rumours that there's more to that loan than meets the eye so not much we can do about it. Also, he's got years of experience playing in La Liga so while he hasn't shown much in his time here, it's not like he's utter ***.

 

I'd be all for blooding youths if we weren't joint second in the league.

 

You mean Zucculini's club side gave him a chance in the first team as a youngster?  ;)  16 years old when he made his debut by the looks of it.  Fair play to him!

 

The last bit I don't get mate?  Surely you blood them at any time otherwise when will ever be ideal? Would next season battling against relegation in the Premier League be better if we were to get promoted?  How about next season battling for promotion if we don't? You're almost saying only bring youngsters through when you're mid-table and going nowhere and I don't see that as being practical.

 

You send them on loan.

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So if we have had Chapman, Fry or Maloney on the bench instead of Zucculini and Stephens we wouldent be joint second in the league? Do I understand you correct? Its all due to the big impact of Zuccilini and Stepehens we been this good...

 

I dont agree

 

They aren't going to play though so is it worth them sitting on the bench?

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If we cant find loan deals for them, I rather have them on the bench and get the feel from Boro a-squad atmosphere. It doesent prevent them from playing u-21 or u-football

 

I rather have our owns filling those spots than other teams youths.

 

Chapman seemed to do good the 15 minutes he got today, so thats nice, I hope get more game time in the future.

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I guess at the end of the day it comes back to

 

AK and Co see them way more than we do and they clearly see more than we do.

 

I don't think AK is perfect but I just don't think he'd ignore youth players if they were seriously pushing for the first team.

 

As for why loan other players in I don't think we're ever going to agree on the benefits of it so I respect your opinion I just disagree.

 

:)

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